Alpine Bolt-On T/C for BetaII

[dmdicks]

Hey Everyone,

I wanted to conduct a quick poll. How many of you think Alpine should offer a true bolt on kit for the BetaII engine? I'm talking specificaly about a Stage 0 and 1 kit that would be 100% bolt-on for the 4 cyl folks. Obviously it being a bolt on kit would mean a slighlty lower boost level to account for the increased OEM compression level. I know for a fact with good tuning the BetaII engine will perform quite nicely running 10-12psi intercooled and around 6-8 psi non-intercooled on stock compression. So what do you think? Should Alpine offer a complete true bolt on kit without the head spacer, but with slightly lower max boost and a lower price?
Please keep your comments to the topic at hand.

[FordFasteRR]

100% desireable.

I think people would be more likely to buy this if the price point was below $2500 .

Otherwise I don't think it will fly to well... remember, people buy Hyundai's because they cost less than the competition but offer equal standard equipment...

so spending 3000 + for a bolt-on low boost kit will most likely not go over well with most shade-tree tuners... (IMHO).

[yamaha]

I believe Alpine should, I know alot of the Elantra community doesn't have 2-3 thousand dollars to throw into a turbo setup, but a nice low boost turbosetup would be nice. Im sure alot would depend on the components and what not, but if I didn't already purchase a turbo setup from Speed-Factor, I would be very interested, and still am.

[CTele02]

Would this "introduction kit" be designed to be "upgradeable" to the higher stage intercooled setups? I believe most people like building up in steps so if they could get the basic turbo bolton (thats priced low enough for most people to afford and "try")... and they like it (want more power), they'll invest more and more into Alpine to buy the other pieces to evolve into the higher Stage kits. But if they don't like it, they could sell it back to someone else in the beta community so that maybe that person would become interested in the prospect of owning a higher end kit.

[Mahonroy]

So this is the same as the 2 current setups they sell right now, only difference is subtract the head spacer out of the equation, and run lower boost through it?

[evan938]

or an intercooler mandatory w/ kits instead of head gasket. thats the only thing i never liked with any kit was the fact that i would either have to attempt a head gasket install or pay someone else to do it, in turn costing more money. honestly, i would consider a 6-8psi intercooled set up just to keep intake charge down for <2500$. i would save for that. i know alpine has great quality, i just hate the thought of having to do something like the spacer unless i knew what i was doing

and start producing more SCs. i would probably go with that over a turbo just to have the low rpm power

[GodisintheTV]

or an intercooler mandatory w/ kits instead of head gasket. thats the only thing i never liked with any kit was the fact that i would either have to attempt a head gasket install or pay someone else to do it, in turn costing more money. honestly, i would consider a 6-8psi intercooled set up just to keep intake charge down for <2500$. i would save for that. i know alpine has great quality, i just hate the thought of having to do something like the spacer unless i knew what i was doing

and start producing more SCs. i would probably go with that over a turbo just to have the low rpm power

id probably go with a supercharger too, i think that would be better.

[th003g]

i have the s/c just need the instructions... hint hint...hehe
ohhh and try to make it a true bolt on and not a hack this move that to bolt it on...

[Mahonroy]

id probably go with a supercharger too, i think that would be better.

The thing is that with a 2 liter engine you can only really go so far with a supercharger, one of the issues fordfaster ran into and why he decided to go with a turbo instead for example.

I believe the point of this is to have an introductory simple low cost turbo setup, that you can expand upon later when it permits. Supercharger you can't really go to much higher it plateaus you know what I meen?

To have something cheap that you can later on upgrade would deffinetly be a turbo setup over a supercharger setup.

[KeWLKaT]

I don't know about this...

If turbos would cost less more people would buy them, which, in turn, means, more INEXPERIENCED people would buy them, and I think that somebody who hasn't done the research nor has the knowledge to begin with falls into that category of people who shouldn't own turbos.

Think about it... People will start blowing their head gaskets by adding too much boost, frying their clutches, blowing up seals, breaking their tranny, etc... They will all blame it on you and such and you will have a lot more complaints and problems (like getting sued 3 times a day) to deal with.

I don't know, that's just my opinion.

[evan938]

honestly, building a big bad *** hyundai was my goal when i was putting together my turbo kit. now, i know what it will take to make my car what i wanted (mid 13's) and its not realistic. but it would be nice to have a little bit more power. 180hp doesnt sound like much, but it is. think. we may be pushing what....115-120 to the wheels? add 60 more HP. i rode in daves n2o XD w/ a ****load of audio weight and it was pretty fast. not mid 13's fast but "put you in your seat" fast. if i get either a SC or a TC, its going to stay at a low number, but enough to give me a nice bump in HP.

[SuperGLS]

I say that it probably makes the most sense to offer a kit like this. First, Hyundai owners are more likely to buy a kit that they can afford now and upgrade later if desired. Second, Hyundai owners want something they can install themselves (or with friends). Third, Hyundai owners tend to buy things that can readily afford (I know that's the same as my first point).

Go for it.

[CornbreadXD]

if a kit like this becomes available i WILL buy a turbo kit, i was pondering it before but if this became available i wouldn't think twice especially less than $2500!

[Doohickie]

Hey Everyone,

I wanted to conduct a quick poll. How many of you think Alpine should offer a true bolt on kit for the BetaII engine? I'm talking specificaly about a Stage 0 and 1 kit that would be 100% bolt-on for the 4 cyl folks. Obviously it being a bolt on kit would mean a slighlty lower boost level to account for the increased OEM compression level. I know for a fact with good tuning the BetaII engine will perform quite nicely running 10-12psi intercooled and around 6-8 psi non-intercooled on stock compression. So what do you think? Should Alpine offer a complete true bolt on kit without the head spacer, but with slightly lower max boost and a lower price?
Please keep your comments to the topic at hand.I have no idea what the heck you're talking about. First of all, what's "T/C"?

[KeWLKaT]

turbocharger

[Doohickie]

Ah. Okay. I kept reading "Traction Control" and I knew it wasn't right.

[only1db]

is ^ one of those people who should not own a turbo?? would it come with the unichip??? because i will tell you what...that is probably the down fall to all of alpines stuff...if they came with a highly tuneable setup that you didnt need to go 5 hours to have it tuned every time you did something (ie exhaust or something) more people would buy it...

10 psi is the max you can get on the stock engine...doing more you would definetly run the risk of blowing something up...

but 2500 or under...would not be a bad price....i say go for it...what the hell!

[Mahonroy]

10 psi is the max you can get on the stock engine...doing more you would definetly run the risk of blowing something up...

Not true, Tim had 17psi going through his engine stock head gasket, stock internals, and it ran just fine. Dave had his engine with what 15-18 psi with lowered compression and it was kosher. I have had even my engine go over 10psi even its fine. Higher the psi you go the less leeway you get, as long as you have everything tuned properly you can go way above 10psi on stock engine.

[Estopatitiana]

...would it come with the unichip??? because i will tell you what...that is probably the down fall to all of alpines stuff...!

amen! that is why i will never buy anything alpine, after reading all these threads on thier products they need to come up with something else,instead of annoying piggyback , if they would just offer a remapped ecu or something simpler i would def buy thier stuff..thats why i will be going for shark racing..for the most part its plug and play and then some fine tuning at the dyno and im set

[only1db]

that is why i'm doing a custom set up...because that cursed unichip!!

manh...i stand corrected...turbo gurus of the past had mentioned that 10 psi was as high as you could go...(Random) <-- if anybody remembers him

[dmdicks]

So this is the same as the 2 current setups they sell right now, only difference is subtract the head spacer out of the equation, and run lower boost through it?

Yup, that's my proposal anyway. I'm 100% the boost for the Stage 0 kit would not need to be lowered.

Would this "introduction kit" be designed to be "upgradeable" to the higher stage intercooled setups? I believe most people like building up in steps so if they could get the basic turbo bolton (thats priced low enough for most people to afford and "try")... and they like it (want more power), they'll invest more and more into Alpine to buy the other pieces to evolve into the higher Stage kits. But if they don't like it, they could sell it back to someone else in the beta community so that maybe that person would become interested in the prospect of owning a higher end kit.

My proposal would be for the Beta II kits to start out without the headspacer for non-intercooled and intercooled setups, with the customer having the option to purchase the head spacer at a later time with a higher boost program for the Unichip.

I don't know about this...

If turbos would cost less more people would buy them, which, in turn, means, more INEXPERIENCED people would buy them, and I think that somebody who hasn't done the research nor has the knowledge to begin with falls into that category of people who shouldn't own turbos.

Think about it... People will start blowing their head gaskets by adding too much boost, frying their clutches, blowing up seals, breaking their tranny, etc... They will all blame it on you and such and you will have a lot more complaints and problems (like getting sued 3 times a day) to deal with.

I don't know, that's just my opinion.

I agree with you to a point. There is always the risk of people going beyond the intended boost levels of any manufactors kit. The key is to offer safe reliable upgrade options so the customer doesn't have to experiment themselves.
I have proven that the stock internals with the head spacer can handle at least 15 psi in a daily driven car. I have no reason to believe a non head spaced engine wouldn't live just fine at a intercooled level of 10psi which would be more than enough for the average enthusiast.

that is why i'm doing a custom set up...because that cursed unichip!!

manh...i stand corrected...turbo gurus of the past had mentioned that 10 psi was as high as you could go...(Random) <-- if anybody remembers him

First and foremost the Unichip is one of the most popular piggyback ECU sold in the entire world. More and more companies are using the Unichip in thier turbo kits due to its ability to work with a wide range of OEM ECUs. Look at kits from world reknown mfr APS. What do they use? Yup, Unichip. In Europe the Unichip is almost exclusively used in most tuner shops.
To your question of tuneability? How many people on this and other sites would you trust to tune your engine? Not many I'd bet. That's the reason most companies go with a non user tuneable solution. The don't want a customer mucking with the tune and blowing an engine or 5... ;)
With that said Alpine would include the necessary retunes of the Unichip depending on what kit upgrades were purchased.

[evan938]

and dont foget bob who was running 16psi on his engine w/ a low comp head gasket in his turbo 03 tib w/ speed factor kit

[Jamnaccent02]

I would love to have a low priced s/c kit for my betaII swappedd accent. I am all for this.

[dmdicks]

Thanks for all your positive replies! The kit has been approved and testing has begun! Hopefully in less than 4 wks you will have a true bolt on kit option for the BetaII!! Yippie!!!

[only1db]

will it be intercooled??? this could get interesting

[dmdicks]

There will be a base 8psi non-intercooled system and a 10-12psi intercooled version. More info to come...

[Kenshin]

VERY COOL!!! A true Bolt-on, low boost turbo set up for a reasonable price is exactly what the Hyundai tuning community needed. Now what would really peak my interest would be an intercooled supercharger. Hint, hint... :bowdown:

[Estopatitiana]

AND an alternative to the unichip

[yamaha]

How is this going to match up to Speed-Factors kit? He was offering a base kit for 1700, and then an upgraded one for 1900, do you plan on matching prices or getting close to price?

[Jamnaccent02]

^^^Good question.

[Estopatitiana]

does speed factor have any ecu management?? remmaping whatev..do you need it?

[2GTS]

Speedfactor offers no tuning. The Unichip takes care of fuel and timing unlike the Safc,fuel only, most people will mention.

[yamaha]

Yes, but even a low boost setup up to 8psi the ECU can compensate and adjust properly.

[dmdicks]

Yes, but even a low boost setup up to 8psi the ECU can compensate and adjust properly.

I agree with you to a point. The OEM ECU seems to behave ok up to around 5psi. It starts getting interesting after that. You see in order to compensate for the boost you MUST install at least larger injectors. The problem with just slapping in larger injectors is that the OEM ECU is constantly fighting to trim out enough fuel for a stoich A/F ratio. The problem is that the OEM ECU sees a certain MAP pressure and thinks it still has the OEM injectors. It doesn't realize you have larger injectors in it. above 5psi this can cause all kinds of bad things if you don't have some way to force additional fuel through the system.
The key to a entry level bolt on kit is simplicity. You aren't going to have simplicity offering a user tuneable aka user screwupable, system. You must offer a bolt-on and go solution. The typical customer does not want to have to worry about going to a dyno just to be able to drive their car. The Unichip handles this without breaking a sweat. Also just because its not user tuneable doesn't mean there are no upgrades available. Alpine will have 8psi, 10psi, 12psi, and 15psi programs available to flash the Unichip with. For example say you bought the 8psi non-intercooled kit and want to later upgrade to the 10 or 12psi intercooled kit. You would buy the Stage 1 upgrade kit that would include the intercooler, piping and a preset manual boost controller. Included in the package would be the free Unichip reflash needed for stage 1 boost.
Alpine is in the business to make reliabe and safe kits. They don't want people buying kits and promptly blowing up engines. The easiest way to do this is with a proven safe kit that can be upgraded with proven safe staged upgrades.

[yamaha]

Now, what about the pricing then for the basic kit?

[evan938]

any warranty thru alpine? dont they warranty your engine for a year or so if installed by a certified tech?

[dmdicks]

Alpine can not offer a warranty on the Turbocharger kits because they cannot be CARB approved. The company they go through requires CARB approval before they will warranty any drivetrain components. There is a 1yr warranty on kit components though you will never need it.
I have been boosted for almost 3yrs now and have had no problems with the drivetrain at all. Matt is running the 8psi non-intercooled kit with the headspacer at 10psi and has zero problems. The BetaII engine is a very strong engine and when properly tuned for boost will last a very long time. The key words are 'properly tuned' for boost.
For the basic kit Alpine is exploring just using 4 larger main injectors with the Unichip. No 5th injector. The subinjector will be part of the staged upgrades. I'm 99% sure with the Unichip controlling things the 8psi can be fully supported by the 290cc Sonata injectors. With that said the target price for the Stage 0 Kit should hopefully come close to a 2000UDS target.

[Estopatitiana]

so heres what im wondering,its kind of a dumb question, but lets say i get their highest stage whp kit for whatever price, since it is intended to be "bolt on" i would simply install all the necessary components including the unichip and just drive it and thats it, im ready to go? or would i be plagued with tuning and retuning and constantly putting money into it to correct problems here and there, i just want to be sure that i can enjoy it without worrying about "proper tuning" all the time

[dmdicks]

Correct on the 1st part. If you purchased the highest HP bolt on version of the kit then all you would do would be install the kit components with the Unichip and drive the snot out of your car with no worries. One thing to note though is the OEM clutch, depending on what condition its in, might not last too long above 200WHP.

[Estopatitiana]

awesome! that sounds very promising, that is exaclty the kind of answere i was looking for, thanks...oh and btw i have an auto. wich puts me in an even worse situation!! if the cost of beefing it up from levelten is too high i might get a manual and swap..we will see though, i cant wait for this kit

[dmdicks]

Autos have been proven to be strong enough for up to 250WHP. Above that you need to swap out the clutch packs.

[yamaha]

I thought the Beta1 and Beta2 automatics could handle 200whp, is Alpine the only one to assure the Elantra community that it can handle 250whp, what exactly needs to be done to the stock automatic tranny to handle that much power besides the transmission cooler?

[cbehage]

Don't you remember that Tim was drag racing his elantra Auto at 17 psi on a T3?

I think it can handel a lot more than people think. I have never seen a post that says " my turbo caused my auto to die"

Also I think Tim(speedfactor) Offers a safc or smt for managment.

[yamaha]

Tim also ran it for a few months before he swapped out to a manual, I'm not sure if it blew up or was getting sluggish. But I myself have never seen a F/I auto running thing over 10psi, besides your car CBehage, I would like to hear what dmdicks has to say on the topic.

[dmdicks]

Automatics are completely different when compared to manuals. In an auto its all about controlling trans fluid temp and having clutch packs strong enough to handle the power.
From everything I've seen the BetaII automatic tranny will survive just fine above 200WHP as long as the trans fluid temps are kept cool. Throw a larger fluid cooler in place of the OEM one and you should be good to go.

[yamaha]

So, with the proper trnamission coller, such a a Hayden unit, and the proper fluid wil be be fine? What type of transmission fluid does Alpine suggest if a F/I would be put on a automatic with the intention of 200-250whp?

[DAILLESTWUN]

You might also want to get a performance Torque converter to help... I'm in the process of getting info from a couple of companies...

[dmdicks]

Any name brand trans fluid will be fine as they all have to meet DOT specifications for viscosity and such. A Hayden unit will be fine, just be aware that adding a larger cooler will require extra fluid to maintain the proper fluid level.

[dmdicks]

Just a quick update. The car originally destined to be the prototype vehicle for this kit was involved in an accident. As such it took a little while to acquire another prototype vehicle. That has been done and testing began yesterday. Stayed tuned for more...

[dmdicks]

Testing is going quite well. So far the non-decompressed engine seems to handle boost fine. More to come soon...hopefully with pics...

[Vampyrate]

well, im gonna start saving up now, i should have enough by mid-late june/july

[CTele02]

Got before and after dynos along with some vids?

[dmdicks]

Ok, another quick update. Testing is complete. Boost is set to 7psi and test car works perfectly!! John has decided to include the four larger 290cc/min injectors as well as the 5th injector to make it easy for future upgrades. He hasn't got a chance to dyno the car yet, but rest assured dyno results are coming!! Tentative pricing is in the 2200USD range. Some may think this is too high but remember this is going to be a complete 100% bolt on kit requiring no engine work or dynotime. You WILL NOT be able to get a pre-programed 100% bolt on and reliable kit for less. The key word is KIT. This is a full featured kit not some custom hack job requiring days to weeks of install and tuning work.

[05xd]

So,this will work with a cvvt equipped model too?Or just a map based engine?

Off topic-Who the hell voted no? Just wondering

[dmdicks]

This kit will work with both non-cvvt and cvvt equipped engines. MAP or MAF it doesn't matter..its all good. Here's a pic I made out of a Stage 1 pic. Enjoy.

[Cypher]

hell yeah thats awesome... i wanna see dyno results... is there a head spacer? or is it not needed? how easy will it be to upgrade?( was that asked before?)

[Vampyrate]

damn, now i want it now... i just wish there was some way to work out payment plans!

[dmdicks]

I'll talk to Alpine and see if they can do partial payments, but you wouldn't get the kit until full payment is received...

[Vampyrate]

of course... but wow... i would love to get one... wonder if there would be some sort of discount if i actually drive out there and let them use my car for other testing

[2GTS]

There is already a kit in testing on a car. I don't think they'll be needing another test car, it's nice to dream though.

[Vampyrate]

they could test anything on my car for a a discount i really dont care.