My thoughts for a n.a. 160 hp BetaII

[sed]

Hi,

I know a lot of people are going to have their own opinion on if this is possible. I don't have a dyno, nor do I *have* a 160 hp elantra, but I think that this setup would get their, if not knock at the door loudly!

What are your thoughts on the following?

2001 Elantra GLS 5spd

Engine:
Adjustable Intake and Camshaft pulleys : 150$
New Timing Belt: 40$
Accord Intake : 50$
BBTB: Free (with rotozip see old EXD for pics)
Ported Intake Manifold: 150 - 200? I think (Carbon?)
4-1 Header: 100$ Shipped
Downpipe Reweld, Manifold touch up, reweld of collector, smooth collector 50$
Custom mandrel bent 2.25in no cat exaust with highflow muffler 450$
REAL tuned E.C.U. 900-?
Dyno Time: ?????????? so much money :(

Suspension:
Lightweight 15" wheels : 1000$
Good tires : 500$
Coilovers : 1000

Transmission:

Racing clutch fluid: 10$
Carbon clutch with Lightened flywheel: 800$ from sr
short throw shifter: 150$
Weight Reduction:

Front two seats replaced with two lightweight racing seats with 4 point harnessess : 500$ 20 lbs 10 x 2 with airbags the seats are heavy
All trunk completely gutted : free 15lbs from jack, spare tire, carpet, foam
Misc. Interior gutted (ducts under the seat, sound deadening mat.) free 4 - 7 lbs
lightweight wheels: 20lbs if wheels are 11 - 12 lbs

more to come when i think of it

shawn :)

[OdessitPashka]

you can get shifter for less than $150 and get stage 3 clutch with flywheel for about $700 shipped.
but everything else sounds pretty good to me. and I hope you will get your 160whp! or you could just save tons of money and get a turbo and have 200-210whp!

[sed]

hmm

OD I have thought about this alot between the turbo and the n/a.

I love turbo! don't get me wrong, I love turbo!

The thought of spending 3,000 - 4,000 dollars for a true turbo application, then to still upgrade the suspension, weight....

I already have the header, exhaust, seat, trunk, misc weight... i just need to get better wheels and suspension, then upper engine parts....

O yeah, High Compression Pistons, New Rings, Port and Polish, Head and Valve Job. - 1500...

So, my car is done for a loooong time with no more moving parts then when i started...

shawn :)

[OdessitPashka]

but doesnt a thought of havin over 200whp make you very happy and make you wanna do anything just to make it reality? well it does it to me!!

[sed]

very happy indeed
but I would love to get to 160 + N/A, then work my way up.

Shawn :)

[OdessitPashka]

once again. good luck!!!

[tharptroy]

I think to make a solid 160whp na, it will come out to be nearly as much as turbo. if you do it right though, you may come up with more hp. (more than 160, not more than with a turbo). going turbo would also allow a level of streetability that NA wouldnt be able to.
cams: $700
head work: $1600 (includes new valve springs and retainers)
well designed exhaust manifold: $600
REAL ecu: $400 rev limiter raised to about 7700 rpm, allowing for a 7500rpm redline
piggyback fuel controller: $300
ignition system: $300 (probably not necessary)
intake manifold re-work (OR re-design): $700
cam timing adjuster: $200
pistons: $700 (with overbore)
rods: $700
maybe need an adjustment in R/S ratio to help with bearing life
internal balancing: $250?
clutch and flywheel: $700
longblock assembly: $500

[FordFasteRR]

holy ****.

thats a LOT of work !!

I'll help as much as I can :)

[OdessitPashka]

it is really way too much for for just 160whp......

[silet]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no way to get 35 to 40 hp with a BETA I or II engine NA.We are talking about a "drivable" and some what legal car, right? Even with forced induction you'll be lucky to get 160 whp. There is no chip out there that will allow you to take advantage of all the intake, exhaust and head work you are talking about. I mean a full control chip not the junk "tell me what you got and I'll program it" crap. You will need to do the all that work, get time on a dyno and have a fully programmable chip to get maybe 20% hp increase (cross your fingers at that too!!!) :headshake

[2GTS]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no way to get 35 to 40 hp with a BETA I or II engine NA.We are talking about a "drivable" and some what legal car, right? Even with forced induction you'll be lucky to get 160 whp. There is no chip out there that will allow you to take advantage of all the intake, exhaust and head work you are talking about. I mean a full control chip not the junk "tell me what you got and I'll program it" crap. You will need to do the all that work, get time on a dyno and have a fully programmable chip to get maybe 20% hp increase (cross your fingers at that too!!!) :headshake
Please let me know who your drug dealer is because I really want some of that crack you're smokin'. No one has been able to prove one way or the other if 160whp is possible N/A. A few people have gotten to about 130ish and givin up before getting into the head or changing to high comp pistons or cams. No one here has done a head job or cams and dynoed afterwards and no one has used a fuel tuner or stand alone to it's fullest on a N/A car. I think Ford is the only one that is messing with the fuel on a N/A car right now and he is not using a wideband O2 sensor or tuning on a dyno. I think it is possible to see 160whp if they can get 225whp out of the beta in N/A in Korea. Also 160whp is no problem at all for forced induction. There is a 03 Tib at about 240whp with the Alpine setup and the sky is the limit for hp if you are doing a custom turbo setup. By years end there will be a couple XD putting down 250+ hp on turbo set ups.

[tharptroy]

Im really a bit astonished that you feel that 35-40 extra horsepower is some unattainable god. Im almost certain that if a 2 liter honda motor can do it in stock form, then there is no reason why a 2 liter hyundai motor cant do it (obviously with a great deal of work). and what chips are you talking about? my thoughts for 160whp are not based on pre-tuned chips, etc. do you know what those "chips" do? they alter fuel and ignition timing. I included the devices necessary to tune fuel and advance ignition timing, though I didnt include tuning ($300 for 2 hours on the dyno) or some other relatively small things.
and lol, "lucky to get 160whp with forced induction" hrmm.... here's a thought on that. if you run 8 pounds of boost, you are pumping roughly 54% more air into your engine so with that in mind, lets say that you're able to make 40% more power (accounting for losses of various types). that puts you at 168whp....
as opposed to flat out calling you an idiot, I will encourage you to research on the subject, since you seem to be under the impression that there is no way to increase the VE of an engine.

and ford, despite the fact that I'd love to have a NA screamer beta, i'd rather have a great daily driver, so i wont be following the above mentioned method. my point in posting all of that was to say that I dont think its going to be anywhere close to practical to make 160whp na out of a beta.
there are some B18b guys on honda forums pushing 170whp, so that may be the practical limit without better head design.

[sed]

yeah

thanks 2gts...

Ok, simply put guys. The betaII might not respond to NA BOLT ON mods to gain HP, but I am not talking about bolting on parts and expecting my car to beat a ferrari...

I am talking about a complete rebuild of the motor, from crank to valve, oversizing and cleanin everything, so in essence this is no longer a betaII!

I am 99.9% sure that I can get at least 160 to the wheels.

and if you look at the first post, I stated dyno time was the major cost!

shawn

[silet]

Please let me know who your drug dealer is because I really want some of that crack you're smokin'. No one has been able to prove one way or the other if 160whp is possible N/A. A few people have gotten to about 130ish and givin up before getting into the head or changing to high comp pistons or cams. No one here has done a head job or cams and dynoed afterwards and no one has used a fuel tuner or stand alone to it's fullest on a N/A car.

Sorry man, never did and never will do drugs... and the rest of your response is my point. I has not been done yet and I won't hold my breath on somebody doing it by the end of the year, with aftermarket support. CARB products for other makes have made 210 to 220 hp at wheels with 1.8L engines and have quite a few examples trough out the US. We can not say the same, but that's what I want. 160 whp NA without having to rip everything out for a state inspection.

[sed]

Carb, Smarb

I am in FL, no emmisions!

[silet]

yeah

thanks 2gts...

Ok, simply put guys. The betaII might not respond to NA BOLT ON mods to gain HP, but I am not talking about bolting on parts and expecting my car to beat a ferrari...

I am talking about a complete rebuild of the motor, from crank to valve, oversizing and cleanin everything, so in essence this is no longer a betaII!

I am 99.9% sure that I can get at least 160 to the wheels.

and if you look at the first post, I stated dyno time was the major cost!

shawn

Very few people have accomplished this without tuning at a dyno. In fact most find out they lost power and needed to make adjustments on multiple dyno runs.

[sed]

jesus

how many times do i have to say I WILL BE TUNING AT A DYNO. damn

[2GTS]

Sorry man, never did and never will do drugs... and the rest of your response is my point. I has not been done yet and I won't hold my breath on somebody doing it by the end of the year, with aftermarket support. CARB products for other makes have made 210 to 220 hp at wheels with 1.8L engines and have quite a few examples trough out the US. We can not say the same, but that's what I want. 160 whp NA without having to rip everything out for a state inspection.

Has not been done and can not be done are two completly different things. I'd be one of the first to do cams safc and some head work if I didn't have to pay for a wedding real soon. I really don't get what you're trying to say here other than you don't want to be the first to try to accomplish 160whp and you want someone to do all the hard work for you. Give me time and I will show you a 160whp N/A XD but I'd guess someone else will get there before I do.

[sed]

that'll be me :)

[silet]

Im really a bit astonished that you feel that 35-40 extra horsepower is some unattainable god. Im almost certain that if a 2 liter honda motor can do it in stock form, then there is no reason why a 2 liter hyundai motor cant do it (obviously with a great deal of work). and what chips are you talking about? my thoughts for 160whp are not based on pre-tuned chips, etc. do you know what those "chips" do? they alter fuel and ignition timing. I included the devices necessary to tune fuel and advance ignition timing, though I didnt include tuning ($300 for 2 hours on the dyno) or some other relatively small things.
and lol, "lucky to get 160whp with forced induction" hrmm.... here's a thought on that. if you run 8 pounds of boost, you are pumping roughly 54% more air into your engine so with that in mind, lets say that you're able to make 40% more power (accounting for losses of various types). that puts you at 168whp....
as opposed to flat out calling you an idiot, I will encourage you to research on the subject, since you seem to be under the impression that there is no way to increase the VE of an engine.

and ford, despite the fact that I'd love to have a NA screamer beta, i'd rather have a great daily driver, so i wont be following the above mentioned method. my point in posting all of that was to say that I dont think its going to be anywhere close to practical to make 160whp na out of a beta.
there are some B18b guys on honda forums pushing 170whp, so that may be the practical limit without better head design.

Please call me a idiot, but only when you increase the volumetric effeciency on BETA II... and then tell me how did it.. so I can did it too ;)


BTW I am trying to get my hands on wife's Integra, but she won't let meeee... :mad:

[sed]

Upping the VE of the betaII?

overbore, new pistons/rings/seals/valves/cams/crank/flywheel/crank pulley

:)

shawn

I am currently saving to do this all to a crate motor
look for my impossible 160 whp na elantra by the end of the summer!

[silet]

Upping the VE of the betaII?

overbore, new pistons/rings/seals/valves/cams/crank/flywheel/crank pulley

:)

shawn

I am currently saving to do this all to a crate motor
look for my impossible 160 whp na elantra by the end of the summer!

Take this for what it's worth. BETA II engines run about 85% VE. Even if you get close 100%, how much would it be in hp. I don't really know, but my instinct will tell me it ain't that much. That's why most go with forced induction systems. Emmisions may not be an issue for you, but how much can you really squeeze out. All I'm saying is do some research, because it's a lot of money for a NA engine...

On a 1.8L honda there other considerations that give a big increase in hp. The TB is smaller, they have a lot of header/exhaust systems and CAIs available. They spend $500 for distributeless systems, which we have...

[tharptroy]

silet, im really not sure how you became to be so very knowledgeable on the subject.
"The actual amount of air the engine ingests compared to that theoretical maximum is called volumetric efficiency (VE)."

so what we have here is a pretty simple thing to understand: more air ingested results on a higher VE.
so, something as simple as an intake raises VE.

no one ever claimed that this would be a "bolt on fun" excercise did they?.

in fact, I dont think it can be done without raising the redline, but I also made a provision for that, didnt I?

and didnt I ALSO make a provision for a custom header to be fabricated?
if you think that CAIs and exhaust systems are what makes the differences, then maybe you should...go work for an unnamed exhaust manufacturer who claims 20whp from their product.

The VE is a calculation based on displacement, therefore, the theoretical output of the two engines is exactly the same, throttle bodies and CAIs are irrelevant. The fundamental difference between most honda engines and hyundai engines are VTEC, head design, and high RPM capabilities. which is why I compared the beta II to the B18B which does NOT have variable valve timing, and does NOT (in stock form) have high RPM capabilities. the heavy hitting hondas run out to at least 8,000 rpm. they can do that because their R/S ratio is more suited for High RPM, and the engine is designed to breathe at high RPM, including a valvetrain capable of handling it. Ideally, you'd want to slightly reduce the stroke of the Beta and overbore it, so that you dont sacrifice displacement.
my point is that there is very little difference between a b18b and a beta. if you work it properly, and design it to operate to at least 7500 rpm, maybe 8,000, the same way that the heavy hitting B18B engines do, then 160whp is attainable. there is no bolt on 160whp for a b18B, nor will there ever be (save the LS/VTEC). the B18B valvetrain is not designed to handle incresed RPM, and there are many other limiting factors that require an engine overhaul before a beta II of the B18B ever break 160whp.

i hope im getting through to you, no one said it was a bolt-on procedure, nor can it ever be.

[BlueGT]

Yes, it won't be easy. Yes, he'll need to spend lots of money. Yes, going forced induction on a BETA is easier but 160whp all motor will be impressive and will definitely earn him respect.

Sed, first of all, work on getting rid of all those parasitic losses. Think crank pulley, lightweight flywheel, remove power steering and a/c. Get all the bolt-ons. Also that electric or manual thing that can switch between the race pipe and catback. After that move on to high compression pistons and cams. And then tuning, tuning, tuning.

Here is a video for you. for some encouragement ;)
http://www.gokata.or.kr/board2/board/dext_down.asp?tb=inno_1&num=10&down=1
that thing is pushing 231whp on the Dynojet and ran 11.7 in the quarter mile. All Motor!

[OdessitPashka]

very impressive. and i really like no headlight feature!!! lol
it alse has some serious weight reduction!

[evil247]

nice video blue I really don't think 160whp is unattainable at all. oh why did I have to lose my job. I might have already been there. Oh well someone hurry up and prove it can be done in the US

[FordFasteRR]

something to consider when switching to higher compression is the cam lobe and overlap dimentions...

N/A motors need more overlap to produce power at higher rpms ... with a beta 2 motor... more overlap = bad idle and bad low rpm performance...

ultimately SED wants to go fast... and to go fast N/A with a motor like ours means loosing SOME streetability and drivability..

If he is lucky enough to strike a good balance, then he will be golden.

:)

[silet]

silet, im really not sure how you became to be so very knowledgeable on the subject.


tharptroy, thank you for stopping short of calling me an idiot, again.

Sed, good luck on your project :)

[sed]

thanks, and I intend to include anyone who wants to be included, your thoughts, ideas, concepts.. I think that with the right planning by all the people on here.... 160whp is our *****.

But, maybe thats me

shawn :)

[tharptroy]

hey sed, HERE's (http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=451681) a guy with a b18b who went NA. as you can see, he had to take it up to 8,000 rpm.

The numbers he showed are untuned dyno numbers, I have already sent him a PM to see if he ever tuned it.
edit: took me an hour to find this: The Hyundai BETA 2.0L has an R/S of around 1.54:1

[sed]

whats good about us, is we have torque.

When I get to 160 I expect to be up there in the 140+ ft lbs...

I want to get a regrind of my cams though, there are no cams for me to buy and I really don't want to have to pay to have them fabbed out... SO I am going to get a little more overlap and lift, with the adjustable gears to fix the timing.

I am also going to go the same way as Ford and get the fuel tuner so I can adjust the fuel levels at idle and WOT.

Working on it now, I was talking to a junkyard last night and I am pretty sure I am going to pull the motor out of a junked betaII this saturday

so far I'm lookin at 150 bucks for a 7k motor..

I'll keep you guys posted. come on I want your opinions.. Engine Management, Piston size, Overbore? IM/Exhaust manifold size runner length, port and polish or port and clean? I have my ideas, but i really want other peoples too!


shawn :)

[FordFasteRR]

If the motor only has 7k on it, you dont wan to get overbore pistons, just go with the same size as stock but with whatever compression level you want.. I say.. dont go higher than 11:1

remember.. you still have to run pump gas...

That sounds like a great price for a longblock ! !! :)

after you pull the head, bring it to my house and we can hog out the ports ! hahahaha

[sed]

Ford,


Yeah thats what I plan on doing, when I get the motor out, I'll pull the head and the IM and TB.. We can port match everything...

Now I have to find someone to help with the bottom end!

shawn ;)

[tharptroy]

should be my last post on this topic, but I want to make sure that sed sees this:
the "perfect" Rod/Stroke ratio is about 1.75. your stroke right now is 1.54. you will need to de-stroke the engine, and in turn increase rod length to compensate. I'll have to find the link again, but if you poke around on hyundaiaftermarket.com, you'll find where (I think red did it) the piston speeds of the 1.8 and 2.0 are compared. its pretty well established that you'll want to rev to at least 7500 rpm, probably closer to 8,000 so that you dont fall out of the powerband when shifting. the piston speeds on the 2.0 at that rpm are unacceptable and the engine will have incresed risk of throwing a rod or bearing failure. you might want to look into swapping the 1.8 liter crank in, along with custom rods, etc. while altering the R/S ratio will improve engine life, it will have an adverse affect on torque.
just more crap to think about. :tongue:

[badger]

i don't know anything about the REAL tuned ECU you listed, but 1) it's expensive, and 2) you'll have to live with whatever rev limit it has ( if it has one). If it has a fixed rev limit, then everything else you do should be based on making as much power as you can within that context. Or go the SMT6 route which is more work to install and a real bear to tune but could yield better results.
Headwork shouldn't cost you $1400 unless you are having major reshaping done and oversize valves installed. if you send the head to Eddie @ http://www.fierroracing.com and have him look at it and give you an idea of what he thinks he can do with it and what it will cost, i will pay shipping, UPS ground.
is the car going to be a daily driver? This will affect cam choice, which will affect compression ratio.
I'd start by getting as much info as you can about the fast all motor Beta II's in Korea. How high are the revving, how much power are they making? Dyno charts are invaluable.
Remember, it's about putting together the right combination of parts.

[evil247]

hmmm thoughts. I think 160whp can be created with everything that you already have SED and then add CAMS, adjustable cam gear and sprocket, and engine management. with the right cams the ability to adjust them and engine management I think both Ford and I would both already be at 160whp. and for any doubters maybe when I get a job again I will prove it. :P

[tharptroy]

in the price for headwork, i included a rough add in for Ti retainers as well as upgraded valve springs.
the REAL ECU is $400 and they raise the redline for you, maybe they would be willing to work with you to set a user-defined redline though.

here's something on stroke to take a look at: Linkey (http://www.hyundaiaftermarket.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=004106#000000)

[sed]

everyone...

please don't stop responding, I really want your opinions on what I need to get to 160+

I am going to do this, just want everyones opinion

shawn :)

[badger]

unless you are going to rev REALLY high, i'd skip the Ti retainers and apply the money elsewhere. i still think you could get the head done and assembled, with aftermarket springs, for ~ 1k or less.

[KeWLKaT]

Even with forced induction you'll be lucky to get 160 whp.

:abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol:


:confused: :confused: :confused:

[only1db]

**** talk about resurrection...

and i believe that toymachine has already proven that wrong...even with a warped head, gas spraying, and exhaust leaks out the wazzo!

[KeWLKaT]

Yep!

Hell... Look at KDMguy's 400 whp beta2 tib hahahahahaha

[silversharkXD2]

It was on the old hyundai aftermarket (the OLD one) forums, i believe, that someone spent the money to make a 200 whp n/a setup...I had seen pics, and i'm not exagerating when I say that the list was longer than half of the first page of this thread. Dude spent like 8 grand or something. It's a lot harded to get 160 na than you think. You can't just add up the numbers you read in the add!!! "these headers can make as much as 20 HP". thats an exageration ment to hook you. It really means with those headers and the exhaust and the intake and the .....you get my point. They mean you have to have the whole setup to NET that 20 hp total.

Buy a turbo unless you have a lot of money. If it were a honda with cheaper and wider availability of parts, i'd say shoot for the moon, but it's a beta in the USA. Forget about it. I hope this post isn't so old that I lost the chance to save you....LOL whats with you kewl...dragging up old *** posts.

I hope this guy realizes that he is trying to add 40 HP to the wheels... Thats like 60 or 70 crank isn't it? People think N/a is cheap and easy. Why do people boost if it is so cheap and easy? Why do magazines make a big deal out of high HP N/A compacts? cause it's hard to do, that's why.

[silet]

:abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol: :abovelol:


:confused: :confused: :confused:

Talk about taking things out of context... over two and half years later!!! He omitted mentioning "drivable and some what legal car" part, but what the heck. It's only details...

[04 elantra cvvt]

Did you get bored kewlkat? This is a really moldy thread. I have to admit, the comment is funny.

[KeWLKaT]

I was searching for something and came upon this.

And, silet, my car is legal, and drivable, very drivable, I have had about 5 days down in 10 months!

[silet]

Like I said, it's only details...

[KeWLKaT]

Like I said, it's only details...

I REALLY don't know what you mean :confused:

[longjeeper]

ok so, i was reading over this and really started to think about the r/s, so if i were to run a 1.8l crank with a stroke of 85mm, and a 2.0l rod with a length of i believe its around 146mm, that would give me a r/s ratio of about 1.71, now i am trying to figure out what my compression ratio would be with that combination....the reason i am asking is that i would like to lower the compression, in a future turbo motor application, but also would like to be able to rev the motor rather high, just tossing it out there and seeing what you guys thought

[tharptroy]

thats going to put your piston WAY below deck.

I calculated your compression ratio to be 6.5:1

you're also not going to have any quench pads with that setup

and kewlkat...whats up with the cracking on silet? looks like he and I already had it out over that statement.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

I was searching for something and came upon this.

And, silet, my car is legal, and drivable, very drivable, I have had about 5 days down in 10 months!

Actually, TECHNICALLY your car isn't legal for sale OR to drive anywhere in the US. Can you get away with it? In some states. But it IS, without a doubt ILLEGAL by FEDERAL emission standards.

Nice way to try and stir it up over here. :rolleyes:


and kewlkat...whats up with the cracking on silet? looks like he and I already had it out over that statement.

Someones a little butt-hurt. Since they can get away with murder here it's easier to do. It's not tolerated elsewhere. . . . . .

Something to remember. . . 3 years ago when this was originally written, there was noone with 140whp, there was noone with F/I that reported here on a regular basis with any real info. Alot of things have changed since then. Heck, I even still WORKED for a Hyundai dealer back then!

[tharptroy]

Something to remember. . . 3 years ago when this was originally written, there was noone with 140whp, there was noone with F/I that reported here on a regular basis with any real info. Alot of things have changed since then. Heck, I even still WORKED for a Hyundai dealer back then!

though true, the fact that no one wanted to spend the money doesnt mean it wasnt possible.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Some learn by reading and theorizing, some learn by doing. If I haven't seen it/done it I never take it for granted and will have my doubts. But that's how I was raised.

[XDGT03]

I'm not making any promises but I have a spare beta II that I think will go up on the engine stand this spring after I get my garage cleaned out. My tenetive plan is to begin rebuilding it, better, stronger, faster, danananananananana...............

Blue printed and balanced for sure. Not sure about what parts to use where. Not going to go FI ever with it. I'm also not looking to make the highest possible whp #s with all kinds of crazy parts. I'm thinking in general about oversized pistons (I think they have them), larger valves assuming new valve seats can be cut into the head, port and polish the head (myself to save money), and mild cams (maybe the 1.8). Probably will look at a dry sump system to raise oil pressure a tad.

I think that with the rest of my mods that I should be looking at around 170 whp. Maybe optimistic. Who knows. I'll know more as spring time gets here whether I'll do this or not. Money is not the major concern tho I'm not going to blow a load of it. Nothing like $8k. But since I have the spare, I can take my time, I will likely need a new motor within 40k miles given how hard I have driven mine, and I have some time I think I can do it over the next year and a half.

[tharptroy]

I'm not making any promises but I have a spare beta II that I think will go up on the engine stand this spring after I get my garage cleaned out. My tenetive plan is to begin rebuilding it, better, stronger, faster, danananananananana...............

Blue printed and balanced for sure. Not sure about what parts to use where. Not going to go FI ever with it. I'm also not looking to make the highest possible whp #s with all kinds of crazy parts. I'm thinking in general about oversized pistons (I think they have them), larger valves assuming new valve seats can be cut into the head, port and polish the head (myself to save money), and mild cams (maybe the 1.8). Probably will look at a dry sump system to raise oil pressure a tad.

I think that with the rest of my mods that I should be looking at around 170 whp. Maybe optimistic. Who knows. I'll know more as spring time gets here whether I'll do this or not. Money is not the major concern tho I'm not going to blow a load of it. Nothing like $8k. But since I have the spare, I can take my time, I will likely need a new motor within 40k miles given how hard I have driven mine, and I have some time I think I can do it over the next year and a half.

sounds like you might buy yourself an extra 7 hp with that build

[ricerrx7]

You're saying that with P&P head, larger pistons (creating more displacement and higher compression ratio), and cams, you could only get 7 hp? Are you serious?

[tharptroy]

he said he was going to use oversized stock pistons...the maximum is 1mm overbore, increasing displacement by a small amount, and compression to 10.3:1

there really arent any cams on the market (1.8 cam profile is almost the same as the XD)...so shell out $1200 for cams, or see no improvement

dry sump....sounds a little overkill, but whatever.

good head porting will give maybe 4-5whp on a NA beta...but an amatuer attempt will probably be a hack job (no offense, it just takes alot of skill to do a good job)...so +1 hp, -5tq

really, I see about 7whp extra out of that setup...so figure it at 147 whp =P

[KeWLKaT]

sounds like you might buy yourself an extra 7 hp with that build

buuuuuuuuuuuuuurnnnnnnnnnnnn :D

[XDGT03]

Pistons .040 over Not much but maybe 5hp

Valves 1mm larger. This is complete speculation but with a mild intake cam I'm thinking that it could be as much as 10hp

Mild cam maybe 5hp

Porting and polishing the head will be mild. Biggest help will be on the intake side. Maybe 8hp

Balancing the motor is a big unknown. I'd guess at maybe 10hp

The purpose of the drysump is because I think the oil pressure runs too low with the small oil galleries especially for racing. I want more flow. Not a huge issue however. Just a thought. Really adds nothing to hp.

This is complete speculation of course. With those calcualtions it puts me around 170whp based upon my best dynojet pull. Add my Apexi fuel tuner and maybe a Powerchip ECU and who really knows. It seems with the right header you can get 20whp according to some. I don't know if I will do it. But I have the parts, time, and money, and will need a motor sooner or later.

[Cypher]

if you were to throw the stock exhaust on and had no other issues felix's car would pass inspection in md annnnnnnnnnnd bob i don't know if you remembered but felix is in canada so his car is legal there ;). felix, kdmguy's car might as well be a 1.8l not a beta since its destroked to lower the comp ratio.

[KeWLKaT]

felix, kdmguy's car might as well be a 1.8l not a beta since its destroked to lower the comp ratio.

dude, the 2.0 AND 1.8L engines ARE BETAS hahahahahahahaa

the 1.5 and 1.6 ones arent.

[ricerrx7]

As far as I recall, KDMguy's engine wasn't destroked. He used the rods and pistons out of a 1.8, but since the bore and stroke are the same, it's still a 2.0. It just moves the stroke farther down the cylinder because of the shorter rod.

[Cypher]

i've never referred to the 1.8 as a beta lol i always think of the betas as the 2.0.

i don't believe the strokes are the same? can someone look that up?

[KeWLKaT]

the stroke is different because the crank is different.

kdmguy has the 2.0 crank and only has 1.8l rods and pistons

[ricerrx7]

^Therefore the stroke would be the same. Rods and pistons will not change the travel of the stroke. Only the crank can do that.

[Cypher]

but by having the shorter rod wouldn't that make the stroke shorter? since the piston isn't traveling as far as it was before.

[ricerrx7]

Still traveling the same distance, it's just that the piston will be in a lower position in the bore.
The crank is what determines the stroke, right? Picture a crank in a block. Put the #1 piston at TDC, and imagine a line through the center of the rod journal. Then put that piston at BDC with a line still through the center of the journal. Then measure the difference between the lines when at TDC and BDC. No matter what rod is attached to that crank, that measurement will not change.

[Cypher]

yeah i got it. i just had to sit back and think about it, i just woke up a little while ago hah.

[KeWLKaT]

yeah the stroke is determined by crank travel

[tharptroy]

I just think you're counting horsepower a little too generously, I wouldnt want you to be dissapointed after you've spent your time rebuilding it.

here's what I think:
1)skip the oversized valves, spend the money on a good valve job and bowl working, or at least buy a few heads to practice on if you're going to do your own porting
2) get some cams with some lift and duration from somewhere. crower might be able to help you out...you might even be able to convince them to do a production run on some hyundai cores....their production cams can be had for $400/pair
3)if you're going to have the block machined, why go with oversized OEM slugs? get a lighter forged high compression piston. weisco has a low compression piston for the beta, and I'm sure they could get you a high compression piston.

there are alot of other things (custom header/IM, and some better engine management), but building an NA engine gets to be very expensive once you start replacing everything

[evan938]

you know, i just had a nice long post typed up, and my fingers on this friggin laptop just managed to erase the whole thing

main point of my post was that with these mods, you cant add "3hp from this, 5 from this, 5 from this, 2 from this" and get 15. look at jims 140whp run...stock MT should do what? 125 whp? so we'll say he got 15whp from a nice list of mods.

i would say youd have a more realistic expectation if you were going for 150-153whp

[tharptroy]

you know, i just had a nice long post typed up, and my fingers on this friggin laptop just managed to erase the whole thing

main point of my post was that with these mods, you cant add "3hp from this, 5 from this, 5 from this, 2 from this" and get 15. look at jims 140whp run...stock MT should do what? 125 whp? so we'll say he got 15whp from a nice list of mods.

i would say youd have a more realistic expectation if you were going for 150-153whp

bingo

[XDGT03]

Valves with a 1mm increase in size increase surface area 9% then times 2. That is 18% more surface area. Somehow calculate the added volumn by whatever the stock lift is. Maybe there is a way to do this with the flow numbers that have been posted somewhere. Now add a mild intake cam and mild porting and polishing, especially around the valve guides and a smoothing of the dreaded right angle dip in the port and 5 angle grinds and you are telling me that you can't get around 20whp from that? I don't think that is overestimating too much. Seems pretty reasonable all in all.

Balancing is a big unknown. BTW I was thinking about this. Would balancing be adding hp or freeing hp?

Yes, there are all kinds of sources for pistons. I haven't really thought too much about what to get. I'm not looking to spend $1000 on em tho.

Do you think just a 270 intake cam would be sufficient?

[tharptroy]

Valves with a 1mm increase in size increase surface area 9% then times 2. That is 18% more surface area. Somehow calculate the added volumn by whatever the stock lift is. Maybe there is a way to do this with the flow numbers that have been posted somewhere. Now add a mild intake cam and mild porting and polishing, especially around the valve guides and a smoothing of the dreaded right angle dip in the port and 5 angle grinds and you are telling me that you can't get around 20whp from that? I don't think that is overestimating too much. Seems pretty reasonable all in all.

Balancing is a big unknown. BTW I was thinking about this. Would balancing be adding hp or freeing hp?

Yes, there are all kinds of sources for pistons. I haven't really thought too much about what to get. I'm not looking to spend $1000 on em tho.

Do you think just a 270 intake cam would be sufficient?

if you had a high compression, high rpm honda, and the last thing that your build needed was headwork, you might get 15whp.

with the stock rev limiter, to hit a solid 160whp, you'll need to be making 140 ft-lbs of torque at 6000 rpm. :eek:

look at a dyno graph, and you'll realize what you're trying to do is no joke.

the thing with larger valves is, as you know, air flows into the chamber around the valve. To an extent, the increased size of the valve will put the edge of the valve closer to the other valve on one side, the combustion chamber wall on the other side, which will impede flow.

also, bigger valves, bigger cams means you're going to need to run more valve spring pressure.

and, if you look at dmdicks flow numbers that he posted, the exhaust flow numbers were about 80% of the intake numbers, which is generally where you want them to be. so doing all of this work to the intake side and no cam on the exhaust side is really going to hurt you.

as far as balancing goes, the engine is already balanced pretty well from the factory, and when you start changing components, thats when balancing becomes important. so, while necessary for an engine build, you probably wont get much power from it.

[XDGT03]

Yep, the long stroker beta has to be pretty well balanced but of course they average everything. Now I think the cranks, like the flywheels are individually balanced so that is a bonus but who knows what their tolerances are. For $150 it is well worth the money to have everything balanced.

The exhaust valves would be 1mm larger too but without the cam I see what you are saying. I guess I have to go back and look at those numbers. With porting and polishing more on the exhaust side than the intake side I might be able to keep the ratio pretty close. I am NOT spending $1000 on cams. That is just crazy. I think that maybe $600 max for both but they should be much more around $400 for a set. Anything more is just a rip imo. Yes I understand there are free market influences but if they sold them for $400-500 a set they would sell 20 times as many.

Anyway, its been an interesting discussion. I'll be thinking some more on it.

[tharptroy]

yeah, I agree that cams are a ripoff, which is one of the reasons why I decided to halt my build, among a variety of other reasons.

my options for cams were
1) get some from korea for too much money
2) have a pair custom made here in the US for too much moeny
3) hardface a set of stock cams for about $900
4) turbo the car instead, then sell the turbo setup for a sportbike, lol

crower cams for similar DOHC cars are about $400/pair, so if we could convince them to make some cams for the beta, they would be at a fair price.

[Cypher]

stock MT do 115ish whp not 125.

[BlueRush]

Are the cams the same in the Beta II with CVVT as the non-CVVT engines?

[evan938]

Are the cams the same in the Beta II with CVVT as the non-CVVT engines?

no34567

[BlueRush]

no34567


So then if we were to aproach any manufacturer they would need to make 2 different sets atleast, if not more to be compatable with both CVVT and non-CVVT. Right?

[XDGT03]

Email sent to crower. I'll see what they have to say. Initially, non-vvt beta's since there are tons of those going back to what 95? If those sell then vvt. However, there is some perceived issue with the 2.0 xd intake cam vs the 1.8 cam for the tib guys. Tho there are ppl running the 2.0 cams for over 40k miles without issue.

We'll see what they say. I figuired if they could make a set for around $500 they would sell maybe 30 sets between us an I4 tibs. Maybe more once we get em in and report good things back. I'm not too hopefull they'll be interested tho.

[Cypher]

when dave was thinking about building his motor he told me ZEX could make him cams for 500? i don't rememebr the price but it wasn't that much.