Cooling your FUEL

[alojahm]

Just wanted to throw the concept out there to see if anyone has done it. BMW has done it to there cars by way of using the A/C low side to cool down the fuel. I know that cold air induction works too but I like to put the twist on the fuel before doing a CAI. Just wonder folks.

[BColeman]

In naturally aspirated trim, I don't think it's going to matter too much.

If you were forced induced (ie, turbocharged, s/c), with a larger pump flowing more fuel, then it might be necessary. However, our cars will never be running more than 600+ horsepower, so until then, it shouldn't be necessary.

[FinalBreath]

i dont think our cars will aver be running more than 300hp.

[jalmir]

there ARE Tib and Elantra with more than 300whp ...

[FinalBreath]

really

[alojahm]

Don't want to start a debate, but why do all these different performance mods to your engine to better it? All I want to do is out do the engineers who build the engines to EPA standards. There are very strong 4 cylinder motors that do well over 200 in HP. I have built some.

[thewilson]

Would colder fuel be as good as cooler air? Just wondering ya know because cooling the fuel is an intriguing idea. With most mods we're forcing in more oxygen and then adding extra fuel as necessary. Which one is better to manipulate hmmm really interesting

[BobMs_wht2k2]

The little gain you would get from running the a/c to cool the fuel charge will be more than offset by the drag of the A/C compressor running all the time. So basically, gain 1-2hp and lose 7-12.

There are lots of N/A 200hp engines, but they aren't Beta II's. Between the terrible Cam profiles, poor head design and a horrid engine management system, we're pretty restricted.

[KeWLKaT]

There are lots of N/A 200hp engines, but they aren't Beta II's.

Wrong.

I've seen a few (5-6) beta2's here in quebec producing more than 200hp, just remember the one that was on sale on ebay a year back, it was produced by a now dead company called hyundaimotorsports.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Naturally Aspirated?

[thewilson]

What if the fuel was passively cooled alla heatsink or run through a transmission cooler type radiator before making the journey. This wouldn't pull on the engine any further and would result in denser fuel. What say you

[BobMs_wht2k2]

In all honesty the fuel flowing under the car to the engine is going to get it as cool as it can get. Much like the STS turbo's not requiring an intercooler because the charge pipe runs under the car to the throttle body. Adding anything else to the fuel system isn't going to be of much benefit.

[KeWLKaT]

I know that cryo2 makes the fuel cooling bar, that chills the fuel down a LOT, a very LOT lol (thats not english at all :P),

Though I'm not sure exactly what it does, they say that subcooled fluids tend to have a molecular structure that makes them better, it would maybe make sense.

And bob, yes, NATURALLY ASPIRATED :) Though I know they had carbs on them, if I remember. Let me try to find you the specs online.

[fgummett]

How about this..?

http://www.sfxperformance.com/images/products/FLE4136.gif

http://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/FLE4136.htm

[KeWLKaT]

Specs for one of those engines they produced:

itb
Head port
regrinded Cams 286deg in/ex, 9,5 lift
fpr
cam gear
13:1 compression
titanium crankshaft

230whp stable, 275whp peak during dyno runs

[BobMs_wht2k2]

OK, 13:1 compression is not exactly streetable for any sort of DD. Titanium crank? C'mon, who HERE has that kind of money.

[KeWLKaT]

hehehehehehehe

[hyunelan2]

Anyone want to tell me the point of cooling your fuel? The point of cooler air, is to increase the density of the air (cold air = more dense), thus having the effect of 'more' air in the engine to mix more fuel with for more power.

I fail to see how cooler fuel is helpful? I know if we were talking a high-heat application, like some industrial uses, you would want to keep the fuel from heating to flashpoint, but that's not the issue here.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

If I understand the crackpot theory it's that cooler fuel reduces the chance of detonation by cooling the intake charge. This, in theory, allows you to run a couple points of compression in the process.

Now, the big thing that alot aren't looking at is the fact that unless you're already boosted or are running high compression pistons this will have little to no effect on our engines.

[DESIGN]

Cooler fuel on our cars is neither helpful nor necessary in a naturally aspirated form. If you need a cooler air fuel mixture and already have a CAI then try water injection. There also are gains to be made by using thermal coatings on the valves and pistons. Personally I believe that you would see better engine improvements by using a 65/35 water to anti-freeze ratio with a bottle or two of Redline’s water wetter.

[thewilson]

:begin pretending to know what im talking about:

I'm sure if it was possible to have as significant gains from supercooling fuel as it is from compressing air the technology would be better known. hey that's a way to think about it lol. We get gains from compressing air or by cooling it both ways get more oxygen into the engine. With gasoline its already under pressure so the only way to get more into the engine is cooler fuel. I'm thinking maybe bigger injectors would net the same result? Too bad there aren't any numbers on this. I would venture to guess that larger injectors would equal the performance gain of significantly cooler fuel. Anybody got an idea on that? Im a noob to engine theory liek this :-p

:end pretending to know what im talking about:

[hyunelan2]

^^^Cooling fuel puts no more into the engine. It does not work like air where temperature is affecting density and atom quantity. Injecting more fuel is how you add more fuel, regardless of temperature, it's the same amount of fuel.

[mtlelantra]

^^^well, liquid density is affected by temperature as well, but it's just not to the same extent as gases, so the effect will not be very much. Hydrocarbons do "shrink" as you decrease temp... e.g. gas station pumps are corrected to a certain temperature.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

But the "magical effects" that some a relooking for are not there. To make this a beneficial upgrade, you'll need to either raise compression, or boost it. Otherwise, on a n/a engine with stock compression, it's not going to do you enough good to warrant the time wasted on the thought.

[getfuzzd]

my 2 cents: when injected at cooler temps, the fuel will also cool the air in the combustion chamber or intake. Nitrous systems also have the same effect because the expanding gas has a cooling effect. When the air and fuel mixture are as cold as you can get it, the more energy is potentially released during combustion as defined under the 3 laws of physics.

[mtlelantra]

As an addenum, don't forget that as the fuel is injected, it undergoes SLIGHT cooling too... IMO, I think efficient atomization in NA cars is way more important.

[alojahm]

After reading some of your inputs I might have to agree with "mtleantra" & "getfuzzd". The whole idea (concept) is to try a stuff your cylinders with a nice, cool, dense mixture of air and fuel. The intake manifold temp. is hot already from the engine compartment, so will your fresh air supply before it reaches the ports. Cooling your fuel source to will help the process of having a nicer burn rate which should produce more power. How much I don't know? Is it worth it? I don't know. But I think I will work on the idea and find out on my own. Thanks for all your help and ideas.

[hyunelan2]

If you actually go through with doing anything - before and after Dynos are the only way to show anything was actually improved. The whole "feels stronger" method of testing is not very efficient, as has been proven time and again.

[06elantra]

my 2cents:

while not in direct relation to cooling of the fuel, the same power increase / economy idea is at play.

a lil while ago, here in australia, there was a product that came out, to RAISE the tempurature of your fuel charge.
I cant remember who - so cant link yaz sorry

the idea was that it was the raised fuel temp as it enters the cyclender for burning, is that it would burn better, being that it is closer to the flash point. that idea has downsides yes i know - and im sure you guys (and gals) know them well too - DETONATION! *dramatic musical effect*

Basically all this product was, was a set of Copper "washers" that go around the injector, and the soak the heat from the head out.. and put it into the injector body.

No gains where made from this Mod IIRC from the forum i was reading it on.

not directly related, but its the other side of the coin i guess!

*gets back in box*