Gauging Interest: Alpine Extreme Turbo Kit

[dmdicks]

Hey Everyone,

I'm putting a feeler out right now for an Alpine Extreme Turbo kit. This kit would include a higher capacity turbocharger flowing upwards of 17-20 psi. For fuel duties it would include a pre-tuned Unichip but instead of utilizing one supplementary injector it would use 4 additional injectors. I'm looking at using Denis' aux injector adapter. So you would use your OEM injectors with 4 290cc additional injectors. This would provide more than enough fuel for upwards of 20psi. Cost would be about 1300 USD above the Stage 1 intercooled kit. Also people who already have a Stage 1 kit could upgrade to the extreme kit. What do you all think?

Dave

[my01elantra]

Sounds good to me, but for those of us who already have the stage 1 intercooled kit would it be $1300? And saying the price is the same do we have to send our uni-chips back to be reflashed or will you send us a new one first? Other then if we have to go without the unichip for a while it sounds good but i'll have to wait until I finish redoing my interior before I have the available funds for that.

[Mahonroy]

That sounds like a good idea! What kind of turbocharger are you planning (or thinking) about using?

[evan938]

that would be fine and dandy if you can prove time and time again that stock internals will hold 20psi. i know you have done it, but then again you have access to tools to tune your car a lot more than anyone buying a kit will be able to. not many others have

20psi is really pushing it. i hope alpines warranty covers the engine when it blows from running too much boost from one of the kits

[KeWLKaT]

yes! denis is the man, he is local to me and i have bought many things from him, he REALLY knows his stuff and his kit isn't your usual crappy bit drilled spacer..

[Mahonroy]

EDIT: me being dumb lol

[KeWLKaT]

read the first post. carefully. ;)

[Mahonroy]

Haha wow nevermind then my bad!

[05xd]

that would be fine and dandy if you can prove time and time again that stock internals will hold 20psi. i know you have done it, but then again you have access to tools to tune your car a lot more than anyone buying a kit will be able to. not many others have

20psi is really pushing it. i hope alpines warranty covers the engine when it blows from running too much boost from one of the kits
Man I just got the new issue of HCI and APE's Tiburon is in it again.They are running like 26 psi on stock internals on their 2.0 with a good tune.Thats where it makes the difference between blowing and not..tuning.These engines will hold 20 psi on a DD if you ask me

[KeWLKaT]

yep, im sure they could easily take the boost.



However i am not willing to risk it without a second car (beater coming in summer of 2007 for that same winter and on), because as we all know, any turbocharged vehicle that wasn't meant to be like that from factory = project. And if you go and play in higher numbers with higher boost, then it becomes an even bigger project with an even bigger chance of faliure. Not knocking on these beta2s that could most probably take it and have taken it with a good tune, but, hey, you have to see it from another point of view at times also :)

[evan938]

yes...a VERY good tune is what is doing it. there is NO WAY i would trust a mail order tune for anything, let alone boosting 17-20psi. there are so many variables that come into play when tuning comes in, that a tune he sets up in denver (high elevation) would not work as well for someone in say florida, with a near sea level elevation. IF i had a unichip dealer/tuner near me, that may be an option, but being that they are few and far, it does not seem like a good idea at all

[KeWLKaT]

evan comon.

OUR ELANTRAS come tuned from factory, for a weather of SOUTH KOREA. lol.

do you see our cars blow up?

ESPECIALLY ALPINE!!! They use one of the safest (read:rich) tune out there so that the tune can withstand virtually any weather.

After talking with John a bit more lately I have noticed that he's not just an old dude with a lot of money, he knows a lot!!!!!!

[ricerrx7]

evan comon.

OUR ELANTRAS come tuned from factory, for a weather of SOUTH KOREA. lol.

do you see our cars blow up?

Actually, I believe that our cars are tuned from the factory, for weather in america. The engineers in fountain valley, ca do testing in america (granted, there's a huge range of climates in america...). But the real difference is tuning a lower performance N/A 2.0l 4cylinder is alot less critical than tuning an engine running 20psi.

[evan938]

any by running pig rich, you're going to be loosing a good chunk of HP

let alpine send a unichip to that APE car and see what happens

like adam said, n/a 2.0 vs 20psi tune is a huge (and potentially engine threatening) difference

[KeWLKaT]

well pig rich or not, it's a start. I read something like 11.5 afr? A perfect FI tune would be like 12-12.5, so it's not that far off.

And keep in mind our cars run pig rich from factory aswell ;)

And I won't believe that thing about a tune being more critical for a 20 psi application. LEAN OUT ON ANY APPLICATION and it will blow up the same way.

[evan938]

i dont think you're getting what im saying, felix

why would you trust a tune for 20psi (on an original n/a motor) on a tune that was set up by someone in a different part of the country as you. dave is in a high altitude area. the tune will not react the same way to a lower altitude region. for something 8-10psi, it might not matter as much, but when you are pushing the limits on an engine by running 20psi with cast pistons and a head gasket to lower compression (once again, ok for low boost, but how long will it last at 20psi?), there are bound to be issues

[Mahonroy]

You know what would be cool, if they could get a tune for in Denver (5280 ft elevation). Then get a tune for sea level, then depending on the location, a map could be made with an average of the numbers...

For example lets say at 6000rpm's, with a load of 12, in Denver the tune has a value of 35 and at sea level the value is 43. So now lets say someone wants a kit who is somewhere in the middle (lets say an altitude of 2640 ft), so in that case, the value could be 39. With this method you couldn't go wrong.

Even if, I doubt you are going to blow an engine from just driving at different altitudes. I meen even myself (I live in the denver area so 5280ft above sea level), I have 15-16psi running through it, I drive up to the mountains all the time (12,000 to 14,000 ft) and my car runs flawlessly. Granted I have a bit of a loss in power, but I still get the same boost, and it still performs exceptionally well in those high altitudes.

So really, I am not even sure if the altitudes would even matter so much to be honest... as long as the base tune is good I think it should be fine.

Plus even if you had a lower psi, you could go with a larger turbo with a larger a/r ratio to make up for it. Plus I am fairly certain the majority of people would have a lot more fun with a turbo that had a bit more lag but really pulled in the top end. The ones that are with the kits now spool up almost instantanious and it pulls the most around 3000 to 4000 then it dies off in the higher rpm's (it still pulls the best in the highest rpm's but it could be a lot more).

Anyways those are just my oppinions

[dmdicks]

We're still investigating which turbo to use to provide max safe performance and affordability.
You guys seem to forget that the OEM computer as well as the Unichip automatically adjust for altitude differences. Like Matt said there are different load cells for different pressures. The Unichip uses both the OEM MAP/MAF sensor as well as its own internal MAP sensor for Adjustments. If your at sea level you'll have more air which moves the load to a different cell. As long as all cells are tuned then there will be no problem.
As far as the cars getting tuned in America your partly right but the cars aren't tuned for altitude they are de-tuned for America's craptastic 85-93 octane petrol.

[ExemptedNut]

well I would be interested if the price was right, and if hp# could be figured, or estimate, (dropping that kind of money better put out some numbers lol) I need help with power being up in new mexico (mile high also)

[only1db]

i would like to see what kind of numbers it would be pushing...4000+ for a a kit running 20psi...is a steal...especially if it just comes as a bolt on with all the pipe diameters and everything for peak efficiency...

remember honda guys have to pay out that much for a crappy 6-8 psi...

[evan938]

no we dont. i can get a brand new (from jackson racing) supercharger that pushes 6psi for 2100$ WITH things like labels, to mark which sensor you are unpluging, a full install instruction manual...im talking, this thing is like 130 steps, thats how in detail it is.

the greddy kit is 2500$ http://robearracing.com/pd_greddy_turbo_kit_integra.cfm

and the drag gen 3 kit runs under 3000$, and comes with a 7psi spring, which can easily be switched out for a higher boost spring

and the thing i love most about these cars...i can buy a 25$ kit to modify my stock ECU, and it will be ready for hondata, uberdata, crome, neptune, and a couple others

i should be boosting 7-10psi by spring time for 1500$ or less, including tuning. 10psi i should be hitting 240 to the wheels, maybe a bit more with tuning

[only1db]

you do that...just remember that the block is not as strong as the betas...i have seen more blown up hondas then hyundais...and i've seen my fair share of turbo'd tibs...and now XDs...i havent seen anybody have a problem like blowing up their motors from an alpine kit...

this is definetly the way i will go...something almost identical to what toy is running right now...its incredibly fast, quick spool, and most of all reliable.

[evan938]

you see more hondas blow up because there are A LOT more people who boost hondas then hyundais.

i havent seen anybody have a problem like blowing up their motors from an alpine kit...

how many people have you seen run 20psi on an alpine kit? dave? who else?

[only1db]

it really doesnt matter how much boost...aslong as the compression is right and the tune is right...which alpine all has down...

they must be confident that it would work...or else they would be paying out lawsuits...

[evan938]

thats why their products im sure say 'for off-road use only'. they need to include some sort of garuntee this will not blow up an engine. i would never buy anything that basically says 'here...use this kit to boost to 20psi, good luck'

if it said that i can use it to boost to "x" psi and if the motor were to blow from an installation of their kit they would compensate for it, then ok...but to replace an enigne, even with a used one is going to run 700$ up to who knows

this is why alpine either needs to be able to garuntee 100% this kit will not blow a motor or not try to produce this kit

[tharptroy]

meh, at 20PSI, one might expect to blow the stock motor...

I personally think that anyone pushing their car that far would be beyond turbo "kits" and be willing to accept that **** blows up every now and then.

[evan938]

exactly, but alpine is trying to market this as an upgrade to a stage one kit, and have it run as a bolt on stock motor kit

[Keyan]

exactly, but alpine is trying to market this as an upgrade to a stage one kit, and have it run as a bolt on stock motor kit


last time I checked, the stage 1 kit included a decompression plate which warrents it as a non-bolt on kit. :)

[evan938]

decompression is a bad cop-out to not consider it bolt on. if you think about it, removing head, installing new gasket/spacer, and reinstalling the head, its like the same thing you would do on an intake manifold spacer...im sure you consider that bolt on though

theyre trying to market this as something someone with some know-how of what theyre doing can do this in a garage in a weekend or so.

its not like this kit includes pistons/rods to hold power that would need to be installed by a professional who knows what they are doing, or a ported head to increase flow. they are expecting this to run on parts that come from the factory. decompression plate or not, you're still going to be using cast pistons. theyre not strong enough to take that abuse day in and day out

[Cypher]

you see more hondas blow up because there are A LOT more people who boost hondas then hyundais.

how many people have you seen run 20psi on an alpine kit? dave? who else?

so basically what you're saying is that hondas are so much better? is that right evan? even when you were modding the elantra you never liked it and looked down on the car. i never got a chance to boost the car and i regret it some because i have and still have plenty of faith in what the motor can do and what it can take. its a strong motor, just because you don't see many people pushing it doesn't mean it isn't strong. it just means theres too many people like you telling them it can't be done reliability.

oh and felix- 11.5 is about the AFR you want for a boosted car, from what i have read and looked up anyway.

[evan938]

is there something i should have looked up to in modding an elantra? theres very limited aftermarket for it, what parts there are you dont have much choice of what to go with between different brands. the xd has been out since 2001. thats 5 years and theres not much to do to it. if i want to get together with a couple other hyundai people to work on cars, i have to make a weekend vacation out of it.

if you're using the elantra to have as a comfortable daily car, then its fine. if you plan on buying it to mod, you're looking at the wrong car. this is why i said all along. if/when i get a new car, it will be something with a good aftermarket to mod. thats exactly what i got.

[dmdicks]

Evan, why don't you play on someone else's board. It's clear to me and others that you do not support Hyundai or the Hyundai performance market. Its people like you that don't root for the underdog. Besides a TRUE performance enthusiast takes the road less traveled. Its takes no skill whatsoever to buy a Honduh or EVO and flip through a performance catalog or your local Schlep Boys.
If you knew anything about the Beta II engine you wouldn't be bashing it. It is a VERY stout motor and with the right tuning you can produce SERIOUS power. Power that will make your local Honduh or Mitsu guy shake in his/her boots.
Here's some pics of one of the main components in the "Extreme" setup.

[Cypher]

Evan, why don't you play on someone else's board. It's clear to me and others that you do not support Hyundai or the Hyundai performance market. Its people like you that don't root for the underdog. Besides a TRUE performance enthusiast takes the road less traveled. Its takes no skill whatsoever to buy a Honduh or EVO and flip through a performance catalog or your local Schlep Boys.
If you knew anything about the Beta II engine you wouldn't be bashing it. It is a VERY stout motor and with the right tuning you can produce SERIOUS power. Power that will make your local Honduh or Mitsu guy shake in his/her boots.

THANK YOU DAVE!!! i've wanted to say that for awhile now. :bowdown:

oh and how bout some power estimates? which turbo were you thinking about? with an upgraded turbo and flowing 20psi there better be at least 400whp coming out of this.

[evan938]

Evan, why don't you play on someone else's board. It's clear to me and others that you do not support Hyundai or the Hyundai performance market. Its people like you that don't root for the underdog. Besides a TRUE performance enthusiast takes the road less traveled. Its takes no skill whatsoever to buy a Honduh or EVO and flip through a performance catalog or your local Schlep Boys.
If you knew anything about the Beta II engine you wouldn't be bashing it. It is a VERY stout motor and with the right tuning you can produce SERIOUS power. Power that will make your local Honduh or Mitsu guy shake in his/her boots.
Here's some pics of one of the main components in the "Extreme" setup.

how about this dave. you release your extreme turbo kit running 17-20psi AND THEN put out a garuntee of some sort that the kit the way you provide it will not blow a motor, and if it does, you will foot the cost of a new used motor with similar miles. then i will stand behind you all you want. no other way would i send a company 2000 miles away over 4500$ (3200 stage 1 + extreme upgrade for 1300) without some garuntee nothing would happen to my engine

5$ says you or john will not do it because you know as well as i do that with power like that, a stock motor will not take it very long before things start breaking

[ricerrx7]

^No company on earth will give you that guarantee Evan. That's just the risk you take when you start getting into serious high performance. If you don't know the risks involved, then yes, you'll be upset when something happens. But no one that really knows anything about cars would complain when they blew their engines based on 20 psi. They would rebuild the engine stronger and try again. If you're looking for reliable high performance, go buy a Z06.

[evan938]

Evan, why don't you play on someone else's board. It's clear to me and others that you do not support Hyundai or the Hyundai performance market. Its people like you that don't root for the underdog

right. thats why i have contributed to turbocharging 2 hyundai owners cars, and have helped many others in installation of various other parts

why dont you get your facts straight. im not trying to keep people from turboing their cars. what i am trying to do is make sure if they are going to do it, theyre not going to end up with a blown engine 2 weeks down the road after they just sent a company 4500$ or more. you do some testing, find out what is garunteed to work and then market it. of course everyone is interested in a 20psi turbo kit. how many people will buy it? 2-3 maybe.

[TSmooth8403]

wow, i'm a little late. but dave if alpine decides on that route, GO WITH IT!! **** i'll send u an extra motor if ya need it. *cough* as long as i get it back with a return *cough* but yea, any car that you take from n/a to f/i is mostly going to be an off road kit. meaning at a track. I don't know many people that go to the track EVERYDAY, but if someone puts the extreme kit on their car and drives it hard daily at every chance hits 17-20 psi then yea maybe somethings are gonna break. maybe not right away but somewhere down the road, especially with a stock head. that much pressure on a stock head is alot for a car not built for it. but I still would like to see it happen. and i bet it's totally possible. that's just my $0.02 Good Luck Dave!

[slow 2K2GT]

Wow this thread got out of hand fast...As for this kit being bolt on or not, well I do recall Evan that you had trouble installing a cam sprocket didnt you, so right there is install is WAY out of your league. A company can never give a guaratee that a turbo kit, regardless of what its output, wont blow your engine. After all you cant know exactly just how the motor was treated prior to the install of the turbo, IF Alpine did the install and then something happened im sure there could be some compensation, BUT again the treatment of the motor and install of the kit is ultimately up to the end user...am I not right in saying this? For the extreme kit....well if the name given to it leads you to believe that this kit is for daily drivers who know nothing about a F/I setup then sure go ahead and purchase it, again it is 100% your risk, as stated "for offroad use only"...arent there aftermarket headlights that boast that same warning? Just my .02 on this matter.

[evan938]

Wow this thread got out of hand fast...As for this kit being bolt on or not, well I do recall Evan that you had trouble installing a cam sprocket didnt you, so right there is install is WAY out of your league.

wow. nice failed attempt at bashing me. im glad you were there to see that i was the one doing the majority of the work on it... :rolleyes:

oh thats right, you weren't there, and i wasn't the one doing the majority of the work. im not going to place blame on anyone else that was doing the work. its my car, i took responsibility. i DID try to get it fixed after the damage was most likey done, and wasnt able to fix it. not like i can go back in time and stop what happened. i had to move forward and replace the motor.

as much as you want to think im an idiot because of what happened that weekend, im sure i could get 10 members on this forum alone who i have helped (or even done all the work on) with their cars with no problems

doubt me and ill have em all shoot you a PM

[slow 2K2GT]

oh well none the less you still had a blown motor that you didnt do the work on, no big deal. The point being if you arent out to have that much power from a boost setup, then that kit isnt for you.

[dmdicks]

The name "Extreme" implies non-stock components.

[evan938]

i hear what you're saying dave, but you're saying this is an upgrade to a stage 1 kit. i dont know if by 'non-stock components' you're suggesting people upgrade to stronger internals and head work, but if so, this shouldnt be marketed as an add on to a stage 1 kit, since that is done on a stock motor (add head spacer).

now if you market it as a kit to add on to a stage 1 with supporting mods, go for it.

[tharptroy]

to add some light-hearted whatnot to the fray, I explained to some fool why I have 2 longblocks and 3 intake manifolds (previous plans to build the motor and turbo it). he then said "aw naw man, them motors arent strong enough". ...the guy drives a vibe GT...LOL. its amazing how ignorant some people act when it comes to cars. thank god for the internet where you can converse with the few intelligent car guys.

[evan938]

does the vibe run the ecotec engine? i know GM actually published a book how to build an ecotec to 1500hp (may have been 2,000...i know it was insanely high), but of course, it wasnt gonna be cheap by any means

[ricerrx7]

Vibes are all toyota built (including the engine).

[ExemptedNut]

Vibes are all toyota built (including the engine).

Are you sure your not talking about the matrix? There is a toyota matrix and a pontiac vibe

[KeWLKaT]

Yes, pontiac vibe is partly toyota made.

[only1db]

they are almost identical...but lets stay on topic...we digressed from the original premise....

dm...when can we start to see some numbers...

[Mahonroy]

My new setup I am doing should be similar to the extreme setup I think, when I get it dyno tuned I will deffinetly post up mine at least too...

Extreme kit will be a nice addition though for sure

[Malfunctionbob]

Are you sure your not talking about the matrix? There is a toyota matrix and a pontiac vibe

They're identical, absolutely identical. I had a Matrix and my buddy had a Vibe and they were the same car.

[tharptroy]

yes, sorry for the tangent...seeing some numbers would be nice, dmdicks

[dmdicks]

Numbers will be coming soon. Just finished re-plumbing the fuel line for the injector spacer. Looks good!

[05xd]

Haha if I only had a spare car,this would be so mine

[jrod13]

I am kind of with Evan on this. I already feel that 1 additional injector is a band aid solution for tuning. Let alone 4 additional injectors. And whoever said 400whp for this would be a dumbass wanting that much on a stock block. You would be asking for a lot of troubles. There are a lot of motors that offer low compression stock for turbochargers that won't take that much power. *Cough*DSM*cough*I am all for boosting these cars. And once a real tuning solution is offered. Something like Hondata for our cars I will jump on the wagon. But not something like an extra injector band aid solution.

[Denisst99]

to be honest it's not a band aid solution,
it's a real working solution,trust me i've got cars running 18 + psi with those without any hickups or problem
when tuned well,you don't have any transition between "stock fueling" and extra fueling,fuel distribution is quite perfect also,so every cylinders get the same amount of fuel

stock pistons won,t hold 400whp for sure,well they might but not for long,but then, not much 4cyl cars can hold 400 whp in stock form also...

[jrod13]

stock pistons won,t hold 400whp for sure,well they might but not for long,but then, not much 4cyl cars can hold 400 whp in stock form also...
I totally agree with you on this part.

How easy is it to dyno tune the extra injector set up, or street tune it?Every car is different. Even if you get a safe (rich) tune, you could still be losing out on hp. What if I wanted to get it more accurately tuned so I can be getting everything out of my 4k+.

[Denisst99]

well, in most case ( i'm sure Alpine does this also) i prefer to tune on the rich side to get an extra safety margin,lets face it,fuel isn't what it used to be and varies from batch to batch,differents companies use different additives.
I prefer to "loose" a few WHP then loose an engine because of a bad tank of fuel
For ease of tuning,so far i didn't try the unichip yet,but with what i'm using i got full control,it's not that hard to get a decent fuel curve

[evan938]

its not the 4 extra injectors im worried about jrod...actually, i think its a good idea since they will run like stock for idle, and will only inject fuel under boost. with super large injectors, it makes it hard to tune and get a nice idle

im worried about the amount of power theyre trying to push through a stock motor (add a headspacer) and the fact that they expect one tune to work for anyone who orders it

[slow 2K2GT]

I wouldnt go with the headspacer for that kind of boost either, so Evan you and I agree on something here. IMO if you can afford the total cost for the Stage 1 with extreme upgrade then im sure a set of aftermarket pistons and rods wouldnt set you back to much. Do it right the first time and dont worry about it again. I think I will be happy with the 15/17PSI flash that Alpine offers on their Unichip, with some headwork and proper supporting mods im sure that kind of boost will reach 270whp...thats enough fun for me.

[jrod13]

I agree with the piston/rod not setting you back much. However if they don't have a map setup for the lower compression that the piston's will bring you, how is that going to be tuned? That brings up a whole new bag of questions.

[tharptroy]

to add...the 5th injector setup may be a band-aid, but 4 additional injectors is far from it. in my opinion, it is THE way to go while still using the stock ECU. you're not compromising fuel flow to any cylinders, you can still idle like a champ, keep the stock ECU happy...I dont really see any downsides to it at all.

as for not having a map for lower compression, the map they send will likely be for an engine with a head spacer...so there isnt much difference in net compression except that you will probably be able to run more timing on a good set of pistons because of tighter quench pad clearances....so you'll have an added margin of safety if you decide to use pistons instead of a spacer...win win situation?

[mayollo072R]

I agree with the piston/rod not setting you back much. However if they don't have a map setup for the lower compression that the piston's will bring you, how is that going to be tuned? That brings up a whole new bag of questions.

You can spend close to 1200 buying pauter rods and wiseco or ross forged turbo pistons that will hold munch more abuse than you'll ever put your car through. Or just buy the 1.8 piston and rod conversion at KDM stuff for 300.00 and that should do it.

And, APE tiburon is running 10:1 JE forged pistons with 26 psi of boost and a shot of 50 NOS. Low compresion might be the safest way but, what about fuel/ boost tunning? This is one of the most important things. If the unichip is well tuned and warrantied to work (covering any engine pre-ignition or detonation) then it will be fine.

I will be running mine at 2 set-ups 10 PSI DD and 14 PSI Track with a two stage boost controler on stock internals. I want to know how much can they hold.

A friend of mine has full stock non intercooled betad Accent with a big T3/T4 and a voretech 12:1 FMU for DD with no tunnig whatsoever runnig at 12psi and it's pushing 203 whp and 256whp with alcohol injection.

Thats a lot of power from a stock internal/external engine and a non tubular manifold.