Bulletproofing my tranny, and a couple other parts...

[Mahonroy]

Hello,
I have been working on a lot of different areas of the car lately. Right now I pulled the engine and tranny, seperated the two, mounted the engine on the engine stand for the time being for the later project, and dissassembled the tranny for a LSD insert install. Here are a couple pics btw for the hell of it:

http://www.jattus.com/dump/tranny1.jpg

http://www.jattus.com/dump/tranny2.jpg

http://www.jattus.com/dump/tranny3.jpg

http://www.jattus.com/dump/tranny4.jpg

http://www.jattus.com/dump/tranny5.jpg

I also am almost done writing a DIY for installing a LSD, or a LSD insert for the hyundai 5 speed manual tranny. Very easy to follow.

Anyways now that I got the differential out, I was planning on getting my 1.8l pistons, rods, piston rings, differential, input shaft, output shaft, and the 3 shift forks cryotreated. Here is a pic of everything getting cryotreated:

http://www.jattus.com/dump/tranny6.jpg

I am cryotreating the differential for when I install the LSD insert, as it will have less of a chance at trashing anything. Also, what is the pin I am supposed to weld in the diff after I install the LSD insert? Basically there is a very large pin that 2 gears in the diff pivot on (and this is the pin that I am under the impression that needs welded on), but then there is another pin (small) that goes into the large diff pin to hold it in place. So I am under the impression that I re-install the diff pin, install the small holder pin, run a bead around the large diff pin to secure it perminently, then punch the small pin back out and discard? Can anyone verify this for me please?

Also cryotreating the input and output shafts (with all the gears, berrings, etc.) to just simply increase the strength of the tranny, so basically all the tranny guts are going to be cryotreated.

Also cryotreating the 3 shift forks, as I have heard of a decent amount of people having problems with them breaking, and trashing there tranny. Seemed like a good idea to cryotreat them while I have the tranny taken appart.

Anyways here is the pricing I got for the above mentioned parts:

*Pistons 8.00ea (I was price quoted 2.00 each for these)
*Rings 4.00 ea.set
*Rods 8.00ea
*Diff 60.00
*Input and Output shaft with gears,bearing on 65.00ea
*shift forks. 7.00ea

So basically no matter what I was planning on cryotreating the Diff because the lsd insert is going to be floating around in there. Pistons, rods, rings, and shift forks for sure as well. Only thing is I am not sure if I should cryotreat the input and output shafts because its kind of expensive, and not sure if it will make that much of a difference, or if its really needed? Because if its not really needed I would rather save the money and spend it elsewhere lol.

Anyways yeah let me know what you guys think. Any help/advice is greatly appreaciated!

[thewilson]

Dude I wish I had your skills. Serious wow one day one day ... maybe i hope

WOW! I cant wait to read the DIY!!

[Keyan]

I have been trying to get 5th gear off the top of my manual trans to get the case off FOREVER! :(

Please tell me the secret, and what tools I need...

those prices for cryotreating are really good. I'm going to go that route when I finally get the damned case apart!

[DESIGN]

If you have gone this far then get the shafts treated. I would guess that the cost of cryo-treating them is based on the thickness and weight of the metal. You have to bring the item down to a certain temp at its core. That means if you were to disassemble the shafts (take the gears and bearings off) and have the components treates seperately then the cost would go down. If you go that route then you could upgrade the bearings instead of dealing with the factory ones. I'm sure with a little digging you would be able to find someone that would sell you better ones. These guys might be able to help you out with bearings. http://www.taylor-race.com/

They are local to the North Dallas area. When I visited them to buy some Redline MT90 on of their techs was rebuilding the rear end out of Henesy Viper. So yeah, they know what their talking about.

[Mahonroy]

Yeah it would be best for me to disassemble the input/output shafts, but I am a little weary of doing that lol. Plus the company said they can do it like that anyways so that seems reasonable enough I guess. Also the parts need to have most of the oil off of them, so I need to figure out how I am going to do that lol because these are some extremely oily parts!

Hey Keyan,
Yeah 5th gear was a little tricky, here is what you need to do:
There are the 2 huge bolts ontop of the two shafts. Notice how the bolts are crimped onto the shaft. You need to un-crimp the bolts using a chisel like tool and a hammer. You also need to jam a penny in the gears to prevent them from turning which was a tip I learned. It will mangle the penny, but the gears are left un-harmed and in perfect condition, just trust me lol. I first did this then got a breaker bar and the 36mm socket to try and remove them after I un-crimped them with no luck (I was even standing on the tranny putting as much force as I could and they wouldn't budge, because the un-crimping process isn't perfect so when you twist the nut it needs to further uncrimp the bolt, which involves a lot of force).

So the easy solution? Simply use an air powered impact wrench (I had mine set to the lowest setting), and that removed the bolts in 2 seconds. Thats the important part is to use one of those wrenches because it helps to uncrimp the bolts as you turn them. Just be sure that when you re-assemble the tranny and put those 2 bolts on, that you re-crimp them with a punch like tool and a hammer.

Once the bolts are off, you need a 3/8" punch and a hammer, and hammer the pin out of the 5th/reverse shift fork, be carefull though to select a gear before hammering to make sure that the pin doesn't jam up against one of the gears and damages it. Also be carefull...when I hammered mine out it weant flying and flew right into the differential, thank god I was taking the tranny appart so that wasn't a problem, but it could be lol.

At this point all the stuff thats sitting ontop of the gears can now pull off, as well as pull off the shift fork.

So now for the tricky part that took some time was how to actually pull the gears off. You can't go to a store and buy a conventional gear puller as they won't work (because the gears sit flush up against the casing, preventing a gear puller to get underneith the gears). You are supposed to use the type of gear puller that clamps around the outside of the gear, then by threading in a screw it pulls the gear off. I looked everywhere for one of those and was unable to locate one. So what I did, was I got like 5 flathead screw drivers and slid them as best as I could under the gears, and with barely any force I was able to lift the gears off. They were barely tight at all, and you deffinetly don't need a gear puller to get them off. The key is to get the smallest screw driver you have, and slide it in under one of those recesses as far as you can, then just rotate the screw driver a little to lift the gear some, then you can slide in the other screw drivers and pry that sucker off. The other gear is removed the same way.

And then once those are off you can continue to dissassemble the tranny from removing all the other necessities, removing all the mounting case bolts, then the second part of the case will break loose and then you are inside the tranny.

[Keyan]

You are a life saver dude :D

[silet]

Did you use these videos at all?

http://www.elantraclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10581

[Cypher]

awesome dude i can't wait to see how this turns out for you! and haha at keyan for not being able to figure it out :tongue:

[Denisst99]

Nah,
don't discard the small holding pin,
the small holding will only break is the planetary gears seize on the cross pin,the weld is only there to add extra protection,not to do the job completely,so keepin the holding pin andwelding the cross pin will add extra protection

BTW, the planetary gears will seize on the cross pin only if you have lots of traction problems (unequal burnouts,one tire on the snow or gravel or snow and 1 one tire on dry pavement...)

[Keyan]

Did you use these videos at all?

http://www.elantraclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10581



There are videos? :eek:


This speeds up my project....damn!

[Mahonroy]

Nah,
don't discard the small holding pin,
the small holding will only break is the planetary gears seize on the cross pin,the weld is only there to add extra protection,not to do the job completely,so keepin the holding pin andwelding the cross pin will add extra protection

BTW, the planetary gears will seize on the cross pin only if you have lots of traction problems (unequal burnouts,one tire on the snow or gravel or snow and 1 one tire on dry pavement...)

It seems like this is a very common scenereo to happen, e.g. un-equal traction problem, or lots of traction problems (such as driving through snow).

I don't understand how traction problems would cause the cross pin to come out?

Thanks again for the help!

[Jonny666]

Just my 2 cents but i think cryo treating your rings may be a bad idea. the whole idea behind piston rings is that they "wear" into the cross hatch when you break in the car. i would assume that the cryotreating may hamper the rings from wearing and cause all of the wear to happen on the cylinder bore's themselves. Also, cryotreating the gears without dissasembly seems like a whole lotta bad idea to me. you'll end up cryotreating the bearings and such. which normally wouldnt be a huge issue but due to everything being assembled i would assume you would end up unevenly cryotreating the bearings and such. not to mention the tolerances in bearings are pretty tight, if the cryotreating messes with that it'll be a whole lotta bad.

[Cypher]

who said he was leaving the gears on teh shafts? i don't recall reading that. he probably just hasn't gotten around to taking it all apart

[ricerrx7]

Yeah it would be best for me to disassemble the input/output shafts, but I am a little weary of doing that lol. Plus the company said they can do it like that anyways so that seems reasonable enough I guess. Also the parts need to have most of the oil off of them, so I need to figure out how I am going to do that lol because these are some extremely oily parts!

Cypher, he said himself that he was leaving everything assembled...

[silet]

There are videos? :eek:


This speeds up my project....damn!


Yup! One for breaking one down and the other put it back together.

[Denisst99]

I don't understand how traction problems would cause the cross pin to come out?
simple,
in normal condition al lthe gears inside the differential don't even turn at all,
they only turn if you havea wheel spinning faster the nthe other one (turning, one legged tire spin......)
so, what's hapening there,gears spins VERY fast of the cross pin,oil get pulled away from the gears and crosspin,pin and gears heat up, then "fusion" welds to each other,this make the crosspin rotate, and this breaks the small retaining pin

now, your freshly fusion welded differential won,t blow appart yet, everything is semi-welded together,but, has you drive with the car you encounter turns and tire spin, this force the gears to turn on the cross pin, and in a while gears wil lbecome loose again on the crosspin,

this is now when the crosspin gets out of the differential,and puches a hole in the tranny case

[DESIGN]

That's a good question regarding the piston rings. I honestly have not heard of anyone cryo-treating the rings. I've heard of them doing the pistons and the connecting rods but not the rings themselves. Actually I have heard of more people doing the rods than even doing the pistons. This is usually because the rod is the weakest member of that assembly. Since you have aftermarket rods and pistons I doubt that is a problem. I am however a big fan of over planning for the worst case scenarios.

[Keyan]

. Since you have aftermarket rods and pistons I doubt that is a problem. I am however a big fan of over planning for the worst case scenarios.


They aren't aftermarket, he got 1.8L pistons and rods when put into a 2.0L block drops the compression to 8.8:1 or something like that. Don't quote me on that number I just woke up ;)

[DESIGN]

If those are stock Hyundai pieces then for sure get them treated. I would also encourage you to balance the rods and pistons. A local machine shop should be able to do this for you. Still not sure about the rings though. I can't give you a good reason not to do it though. I've just not heard of it before.

[Mahonroy]

Yeah I had not heard of it before either until I was on some cryotreating websites and I guess its a fairly common thing that they do is cryotreat the rings as well.

Dennisst99, Reguarding the diff, that situation you explained, wouldn't that happen on even just a normal diff, without the lsd in it? Sorry I am having a hard time understanding

When you refer to the crosspin, thats the large one right? And the retaining pin is the one that goes into the crosspin to hold it in place? Thanks again!

[Ugzz]

that is some intense work. i bet you save a fortune on mechanic labor ;)

[Jonny666]

Alright, so i've put some thought into this. here's what i have to say bout cryotreating the rings. you've basicly got 4 rings stacked on top of each other including the 2 oil control rings. None of these rings are going to be 100 percent round. they will each have minor flaws in them in roundness etc. now that means that as the rings wear into the cylinder, they sort of become matched to each other and they become matched to the cylinder walls and seal. if they are cryotreated, most of the wearing will happen on the cylinder side, but the rings will not be matched to each other like they would normally because they basicly will not wear at all. this could cause portions of the piston rings to not contact the sidewall as well as others. danm perhaps i need pictures to help explain myself? can anyone understand what im saying.

[Mahonroy]

Yeah I understand what you are saying. I think I am going to not cryotreat the rings. The berrings are supposedly good to cryotreat as well, but I think I am going to not do the input/output shafts either, to save 130 bucks, and I don't think I will be abusing the tranny enough to have problems with the input/output shafts either. Granted it would be better to get them done, I would just rather save the 130 bucks I suppose.

[Denisst99]

well,
even with the lsd in, if you have a wheel on dry pavement with good tration and the other wheel on a spot of ice,snow or gravel,if the car is stuck, and you abuse the car to get it unstuck, you might end up with problem with the diff
same thing can also happen if you're the kind of guy that likes to make the tires spin while turning a corner

the LSD insert doesn't make the diff "better" it's job is to force both wheel to spin at the same time,but it need to let it slip also so that the car doesn't "jerk" when turning a corner

cross pin is the large one that goes trough the gears
holding pin is the very small one that prevent the crosspin from rotating

[KeWLKaT]

i just dont understand how u paid 8$ for pistons... and rods too...

wtf if u can get me a full set for 60$ id buy it from you right now... lol...

[DESIGN]

I think that 8 bucks is for the cryotreatment and not for the piston itself. I think you are making a good call on not having the rings treated.

[Mahonroy]

Yeah, I got the 1.8l pistons, rods, rings for like 300 from korea, then yeah the 8 bucks is for the cryo treatment.

Deffinetly did not know about these issues with the lsd, kind of makes me regret going that option lol rather than a true LSD. But I am down to try it out and see how it works.

Those issues though, why wouldn't those happen on a differential without a lsd insert? Seems those are issues for both...?

[KeWLKaT]

true lsd's are designed to do what they do... this is like a bandaid solution


and, oh, my bad. lol.

[Jonny666]

I would assume the problem comes from the variation in speeds between the 2 wheels, the insert should help to control the speed defferances and there fore should help with this problem. lastly welding the pin in sounds like its a bulletproofing procedure to help strengthen the tranny. reguardless you will likely be much better off than you were with an open diff so its likely not going to be a total loss.

[05xd]

The lsd insert (phantom grip) is a good idea for low budget people.My friend has one in his car and has never had any problems with it.It's got over 15k miles on it.Good luck on the cyro adventures :)

[Mahonroy]

So I take it I shouldn't do burnouts in the waterbox w/ before I drag race then lol?

[05xd]

So I take it I shouldn't do burnouts in the waterbox w/ before I drag race then lol?
What would it hurt?

[Mahonroy]

Just because I see a lot of people doing burnouts in the water boxes to heat up there tires, and lots of the FWD cars only have 1 of the tires spinning. Granted the LSD will help, but it seems from what was described above the tires aren't going to be spinning exactly the same, so it will be bad for the diff...?

[05xd]

Well unless you are running drag radials or street drags,there isn't really any use to do smokey burn-outs

[RicJae]

The control that sends air to the different ducts has stopped working. The fan speed works and everything else seems to work, even the defrost setting (that supposed to send air to the windshield) turns on the compressor. I'm guessing that a vacuum control has failed just as the weather started getting real cold here in Eastern PA. Help?

[Mahonroy]

lol what are you talking about RicJae?

[KeWLKaT]

seriously..........lol

[Mahonroy]

I was considering installing the lsd insert first, tig welding the large diff pin, then cryotreating the whole works. That way it doesn't weeken the metal at all tig welding a cryotreated piece, as well as I bet the insert would benefit from it as well.... just waiting on the insert then I can ship everything off

EDIT:

Ok, here ya go, here is the DIY tutorial I wrote: http://www.jattus.com/Performance/diylsd.htm

Let me know what you guys think

[05xd]

Looks like a good write up.

[Mahonroy]

I had a quick question if anyone can answer for me.

So you know how you hear about lots of people having the shift forks breaking inside of the tranny? Which part of the fork usually breaks? I was under the impression that it was the rod that would break, not the 2 cast pieces. Can anyone conferm for me plz? I am shipping the stuff tomorrow morning and just thought about it lol

[Keyan]

I had a quick question if anyone can answer for me.

So you know how you hear about lots of people having the shift forks breaking inside of the tranny? Which part of the fork usually breaks? I was under the impression that it was the rod that would break, not the 2 cast pieces. Can anyone conferm for me plz? I am shipping the stuff tomorrow morning and just thought about it lol


I'm pretty sure it's the part that actually locks into the synchro ring. the part that sticks off the fork a bit.

[Denisst99]

it's the aluminium cast piece that breaks
most of the time the "fingers" will break first but on some occasion they develop a stress crack near the main "shafts"
i'm digging up on a heavy fork (1-2) wich is the one breaking 95% of times

[Mahonroy]

Figures, lol, after I package everything up lol. I guess I better add those cast pieces because I only packed the shafts. Thanks!

[Jonny666]

Let's be honest here, anyone who expects to start a huge project like this and pack up all the right parts he needs the first try is a fool!!! I say screw it, just send em your whole tranny!!!!

[Keyan]

Hey Mahonroy,

Where are you sending your stuff out to?

I think I want to send them out to the same place.
There is no one in my area who does cryogenics...I thought levelten did, but they do automatic transmissions only.

BTW did any one ever notice this topic is in the wrong section?? :D:D

[KeWLKaT]

Nah it concerns FI.

And you have an auto.

And will never succeed to your plans to swap in the manual. Go ahead now and prove me wrong! :)

[Keyan]

Nah it concerns FI.

And you have an auto.

And will never succeed to your plans to swap in the manual. Go ahead now and prove me wrong! :)


Differential and shift forks are in my passenger seat ready to get sent out...
Phantom Grip on the way...

And I found what was wrong with my trans....The case is covered in stress cracks!

I have to order a new case and bell housing :mad: :mad: :hand: :hand:

[/rant]
[/thread hijack]

[KeWLKaT]

you have a pg on the way....

somehow i feel like i will be buying it from you in 3-4 months after you fail at this

good luck getting those 2 bolts loose hah

im just messing with u man rofl

[Mahonroy]

I shipped the parts to "One Cryo" there website is http://www.onecryo.com/
-Matt

[Mahonroy]

Finally got my stuff back, was working on installing the LSD insert into the differential now, and had a question.

It appears that the pin only goes in 1 way, and in order for it to come out that way, there are 8 bolts on the diff holding down a plate, this plate half way covers the pin, preventing it from being removed (you can only punch the pin like 5-10% of the way out before it hits the plate). So because of this I see no need in welding the pin in the differential. Anyways I am going to use an impact wrench to remove the large 8x 3/4" bolts, kind of a long shot here, but would anyone have any kind of an idea on how much I should torque those bolts back down afterwards?

[Cypher]

start a pool on if keyan fails or not?

[KeWLKaT]

start a pool on if keyan fails or not?
doo eet

[Denisst99]

you're speaking of the small retaining pin or the large crosspin?
i've never came across retaining plates for the crosspin in those trans...

[only1db]

start a pool on if keyan fails or not?


you guys are ruthless...

matt...just remember that the PG will only really help on the straight...it will not stop your inside tire from being fried on corners...and it will most definetly not help upon de-acceleration...

i wish we could get a hold of quaife... :phone:

[thedrumm]

Did you ever get it done? How did the PG work out?

[Mahonroy]

Yeah I used it for a while. After the input shaft of the transmission stripped out with the center hub of my clutch, I just swapped transmissions and never put the LSD insert back in. I guess I could sell it to someone if anyone wants it lol, its just sitting in my garage in the differential.