Lean at boost!

[hyunpower]

Hey everyone.

I have been experiecing lean conditions at boost. I've been trying different sensor in/out calibrations on the SAFC for the 2.5 MAP cant get to richen at times at WOT. Don't know if anyone has fix or had this problem. Do I make a return line and upgrade pump?
I have on my setup:
14b turbo@12-15psi
2.5 full exhuast
log-style manifold
boost controller XS
4inch wide intercooler.
type-s bov

fUEL:
SAFC II
2.5 MAP from sharkracing.com
190plh walbro fuel pump
290cc Sonata injectors
stock return-style fuel system

engine;/drive train
Stock ECU
decompression plate
A/t cooler

[Cypher]

the ecu cannot be tuned at WOT because its in closed loop mode. closed loop mode is where the ecu runs off of preset maps and ignores sensor input. the SAFC is not a viable solution for boosted conditions.

how do you know you've been running lean? do you have a wideband? if so, how lean are you?

edit: i also noticed you asked about a return line but mentioned a "stock return style fuel system"? the stock xd fuel system is a deadhead or returnless. do you have a J2 or xd?

[Keyan]

the ecu cannot be tuned at WOT because its in closed loop mode. closed loop mode is where the ecu runs off of preset maps and ignores sensor input. the SAFC is not a viable solution for boosted conditions.


not all cars are like that

are you sure the elantra runs this way?

[Cypher]

yes, i'm pretty certain it does. and to revise my previous statement: the computer will use the map/maf sensor to attempt to adjust the fuel mixture accordingly but once it sees values outside of its preset ranges it will "fight" the values that it is seeing basically rendering the piggyback useless.

just look at yamaha when he tried the smt-6. if i remember correctly the same thing started to happen to him. the computer would fight the settings. thats why eventually he bought the dual rail setup from a member on rdtib.

donnie tried the SAFC on his xd before when he had the cam in it and his parts and said the ONLY time it seemed to make a difference was when he had just reset the ecu and even then it didn't last long.

i think clarion tried it as well and he ended up damaging things.

there MAY be different provisions possible with the 04+ because it has a primary wideband but i don't know of many people who have tried custom setups on the cvvt motors.

[hyunpower]

sry
didnt mention I have an Xd and no wideband. but have a a/f gauge, but can feel at times when leaning the car lacks power from teh boost.

[Cypher]

sweeping a/f gauges (narrowbands) are only "accurate" when at WOT and near stoich. all other times they are useless since they won't read the wide range of values you need to see. you'll want to be around 11.5 as an AFR, it might vary a tad but this is where you want ur AFR to lay on FI.

[slow 2K2GT]

Yes Jim you are right about my findings with the SAFC, only when I reset the ECU and it took that 10-15 minutes of driving to learn its own curve did I notice a difference. A smart ECU we have, the SAFC was mostly to make those who were not blessed in the art of modding to ask questions.

[Cypher]

i'm taking this from another forum i'm on but for anyone interested:

http://www.turbomustangs.com/ECUarticle.php

its about some standalones that are available. this is not mustang specific and is adaptable to any car.

[05xd]

Here is what you need.
1.Beater DD
2.MegaSquirt ecm from previous link.

That is all

[adeihl]

i have something to say about the issue. the SAFC will work. but i am wasted. Will edit post tomorrow.

[dmdicks]

HOLY CRAP!! Who's this adeihl guy? Haven't heard from him in AGES!! You can get the SAFC to work but you REALLY NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!! You need to constantly monitor your short & long term fuel trims as well as your IGN Timing. What it boils down to is you NEED to scale your injectors and MAF/MAP sensor appropriate. If you use too big of an injector or too big of a MAF/MAP sensor your fuel trims will be all out of whack creating havoc on your timing curve. Too much timing advance means BIG BOOM!

[rush6432]

Your problem is the fact that your trying to run 12-15 lbs of boost on pump gas on 10:1 compression. there is a point where you just cant run anymore boost on pump gas..... 10-12ish is about what ive seen as the limit for 10:1 and boost thats without pulling back any timing and having to make it really rich to cool combustion chamber and keep detonation away. might wanna invest in an MSD Knock alert to let you know when your getting detonation.

[cclngthr]

Your problem is the fact that your trying to run 12-15 lbs of boost on pump gas on 10:1 compression. there is a point where you just cant run anymore boost on pump gas..... 10-12ish is about what ive seen as the limit for 10:1 and boost thats without pulling back any timing and having to make it really rich to cool combustion chamber and keep detonation away. might wanna invest in an MSD Knock alert to let you know when your getting detonation.

Timing is too advanced.

Our cars run (normally) with too much advanced cam timing and ign timing that is slightly retarded. Try retarding the cam timing a degree or two.

[Cypher]

bah. at 10.1:1 a competent tuner can easily run 12 lbs on pump gas. just pull back a little timing and run a tad richer.

[rush6432]

bah. at 10.1:1 a competent tuner can easily run 12 lbs on pump gas. just pull back a little timing and run a tad richer.

never said you couldn't run that much boost, im saying without dicking with timing at all you cant run more really... your limited. you get to a point where when you add enough boost and pull back enough timing that your just doing no good at all (on pump gas) your basically just compensating for the power loss your inducing by retarding the timing a bunch by adding boost to try to make up for the powerloss. granted yes this DOES get a turbo into its efficiency range but then again i off boost power would be sluggish and the car would run like a turd with a ton of retarded timing.

[KeWLKaT]

bah. at 10.1:1 a competent tuner can easily run 12 lbs on pump gas. just pull back a little timing and run a tad richer.

even the alpine tune is good for that much boost :abovelol:

[Cypher]

rush: thats why you advance the timing at low speeds to keep you in power but pull back at the upper ends of the powerband!

felix: hook up a wideband and tell me what that alpine kit has you running at. i bet its rich as hell

[rush6432]

rush: thats why you advance the timing at low speeds to keep you in power but pull back at the upper ends of the powerband!

felix: hook up a wideband and tell me what that alpine kit has you running at. i bet its rich as hell

yes but with what........piggyback?? ecu is just gonna override that more or less if im not mistaken.

[only1db]

^ can you just use an MSD unit for the timing?

[yamaha]

From what I understand the MSD will only allow for a better spark on it's own. You need something to physically control the timing feature's on the DISII, such as a SMT or eManage. I'm working on wiring in the MSD to the SMT for timing control.

[Cypher]

i believe theres a msd that will retard on its own under boost. i think someone else has said that. don't take that to heart tho, i'm probably mistaken

[Denisst99]

From what I understand the MSD will only allow for a better spark on it's own. You need something to physically control the timing feature's on the DISII, such as a SMT or eManage. I'm working on wiring in the MSD to the SMT for timing control.

i'm also working on it,but been quite short on time :(

keep me posted with your development i'll try to help you also ;-)

[rush6432]

i believe theres a msd that will retard on its own under boost. i think someone else has said that. don't take that to heart tho, i'm probably mistaken

yep :) msd boost timing master. Now i think i remember reading that someone at RDtiburon got the emanage timing feature to work with stock ignition but i think you had to modify some stuff. If thats the case and the ecu doesn't jump in the middle and screw up the fun then i think we've got somthing. msd boost timing master honestly would be easier way to do it i think. just retards however many degrees per lb of boost you want.

[only1db]

^ well i guess that could be one thing solved...but what about fuel??

i believe there is a unichip that controls four sub injectors...unichip Q ...IIRC ther are a couple of tibs with that set up

[rush6432]

^ well i guess that could be one thing solved...but what about fuel??

i believe there is a unichip that controls four sub injectors...unichip Q ...IIRC ther are a couple of tibs with that set up

sub injectors or additional injectors are the way to go i think... turbonetics makes somthing called the FIC (fuel injector controller) comes with two lucas 440 cc injectors and it has its own 2 bar map sensor and it needs an rpm signal and it fires based on boost and rpm and however much fuel you program it to put in. its completely independent of the stock fuel system. you just unscrew the fitting at the end of the fuel rail and attach a fitting that allows you to put 3/8 fuel line on and then run it to the injectors. this way its still emissions compliant if you keep your stock injectors and such.

[yamaha]

The MSD Boost Timing unit cannot be used with the DISII, so it is useless for our cars. Wiring in the MSD to a piggyback unit is the only way I know of so far to use the MSD to control timing, other then with the SMT or eManage on it's own.

Now i think i remember reading that someone at RDtiburon got the emanage timing feature to work with stock ignition but i think you had to modify some stuff.

The SMT6 can control timing on it's own just fine, without having to modify anything else then just splicing in wires.

[rush6432]

yah but whats the price ont he smt6 setup....emanage is pretty cheap these days. 280-300 bux all said n done

[yamaha]

I picked up my SMT for 200. Only a few people are running the eManage, while most people on RD and HP.com run the SMT.

[swifty]

This is the MSD unit I have. http://www.msdignition.com/sci_2.htm
I have not hooked up a map sensor yet, but it says it can retard timing by boost pressure, or a 3 step retard.
http://www.elantraxd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18396

P.S It was not cheep

[yamaha]

Holy 600 dollar investment!

[rush6432]

Intresting :) let me know how it works id like to see if the ecu throws a fit and tries to screw with timing. ONly thing id be worried about is the fact that its intercepting the signal, modifying it (delaying it in your boost case) and then sending its modifyed or delayed signal to the coil. now if the ecu picks this up and see that its not doing what its telling it to do im sure it'll try to do somthing either massive retard or massive advance to try to get it to do whatever.

[dmdicks]

It may be 200-300 for the base eManage but once you start adding in the necessary sensors that will quickly skyrocket. I can get you a complete SMT-6 with self tuner package for less than 400 USD brand new. In fact I'll be putting one on my Alpine Extreme kitted car very soon. I want to see the difference between the SMT and Unichip Q Version.

[yamaha]

Dave,

I believe you will like the SMT. Unless you have access to the tuning software on the Unichip, the SMT is in it's own world. I'm not sure how you plan on wiring it into your car. But how do you plan on compensating for the fuel trims that the ECU likes to control? Will you be wiring it for timing as well? Are you going to be doing a 2nd rail with a turbo box that Denis from Perfect Power Canada provides? If you plan on using the turbo box, be aware you will not be able to control timing on your own, and will need to come up with a solution for that. Some insight into your plans would be interesting to see. Goodluck.

[Denisst99]

Yamaha,
in fact the turbo box doesn't interfere with the smt-6 timing option
it will interfere if you wanted to switch something else with the smt-6 orange wire
what is interfering with the timign function is the fact that you need to groundthe smt-6 green wire (wich when doing the timing needs to be hooked up to the crank sensor)

I'm sure Dave as acces to the unichip softwaresince he's working with alpine ;-)

BTW how's your project going on Sean?

[yamaha]

Denis,

So why would you not be able to just splice off of the ground wire of the SMT twice then? I'm getting my car towed back to my garage this weekend, so hopefully I can start on it this week.

[Denisst99]

if you want to give it a try,
instead of hooking up the crank sensor ''ground'' wire (ecu pin16 i think) to the smt-6 green wire hook it up to the smt-6 black wire

it might work or it might trigger some false misfire,some ECU are much more sensible to this then others