Hybrid's end near?

[hyunelan2]

Honda is dropping the Accord Hybrid. Possibly replacing it with a diesel.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/AUTOS/06/05/honda_dropping_hybrid/index.html

Could it be that the 'fad' of hybrid vehicles is coming to an end, since they're not much more fuel efficient than a good diesel?

Diesel engines return to the U.S. : http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/01/autos/diesels/

[soullesselantra]

i cant believe its happening so late in the game...but, looks like the auto makers will try anything for a buck or two in the ol profit section...

[Cypher]

diesel FTW!!!! :) diesels will probably be the new wave since (if i'm not mistaken) biodiesel is fully replenishable.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

And diesel's can run on vegetable oil.

In all honesty, with the extreme complexity of the whole Hybrid fad, I just don't see the manufacturers making any real profit off of them. If the EPA wasn't full of a bunch of shipdits diesels would have been more popular here.

[OPZ]

So no need to try and import the CRDi then? haha

[vsolo]

Again Simple is good. :D
To the average buyer (not us) :rolleyes: it is too complicated to figure out. and the cost to fix it is way too much & they (the car makers) know that will kill sales. the Rest of the world runs diesels everywhere,, :cool:

It is the oil companies in the US that don't want to clean up the diesel like they have in Europe

It is too bad they got a bad rap here because of GM years ago tried to use cheap blocks in their diesels & all the people who had their first experience with them were really disappointed) :( it is only the US that wants Hybrids & SUV's. :rolleyes:

Same thing has happened with Hyundai, I know when I got mine in '00, '01 &'02, the average persons did not know about the increase in quality of the Hyundai’s... & we all know “oh you bought a Hyundai” :eek: who laughing now. Yes we are use to it not costing much to fix & we complain when we have to do the 30K or 60K service but in the long run, if you keep your car forever (like I do) it is well worth it.. :D :D :bowdown:

[hyunelan2]

Part of the Diesel misnomer is from what diesel "used to be," not what it is now. The Sulfur content of diesel is much, much lower than it was when diesels in the U.S. were prevalent in the late-70s and early-80s. It's much cleaner and less polluting than it was back then. However, nobody knows that since we don't see diesels on an everyday basis (other than big trucks). I doubt many 'common' people even know when they're sitting behind a Diesel Jetta.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

It is the oil companies in the US that don't want to clean up the diesel like they have in Europe




That's not true either. THe EPA has deemed that the Diesel engine must meet gasoline engine emissions standards. The Europeans do not. Plus it has taken too long to bring to market the low-sulphur FUELS TO BE ABLE TO MEEt those new standards. THe European manufacturers are having to "reinvent the wheel" and make some serious changes to their current line od engines just to meet the US regs.

Like I said. . .if the EPA wasn't so full of shipdits. . .

As for the GM 350 diesel, they weren't "cheap blocks" they were cheap headbolts. The headbolts would stretch under that 21:1 compression and blow the head gasket. Most customers being the typical inattentive people they were would then overheat them cracking the heads. I know on the diesel forums tha tthere are several 350 diesels pushing 350hp reliability.

[hyunelan2]

Like Bob said, Diesel fuel is cleaner in the U.S. than it is in Europe. One of the articles I linked in the OP talks about that.

[ArunSenior04]

I dont think Hybrid cars are dead, maybe just battery powered ones. There are alot of engineers out there developing some truly amazing technology; Even going as far to re-invent the damn wheel.

[hyunelan2]

For the cost of a Scion xB (plus a $55,000 conversion) you can have a fully electric, plug into anywhere, ebox.

http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/default.htm

[sciphi]

Diesel's time is coming. Seeing how here in western NY a gallon of gas is $3.15 and rising while a gallon of diesel is $2.99 or cheaper when paying in cash (go cash!) and a lot of diesel vehicles get better mileage than gas vehicles, like my friend's dad's GMC 2500 diesel pickup that gets 22 mpg highway as compared to the gas version's 17-18, I can see how a new generation of car owners would want increased fuel efficiency. Plus think of what tuning you could do with a turbodiesel Elantra.

Diesel-electric hybrids. Now that is something I'd like to see. Whether they be more like a diesel generator driving electic motors in the wheels, or like current hybrids, they are coming. The advantages of better economy and cheaper running costs (not repair costs, though) are definitely there.

[bdiggy]

My boss is buying a diesel Liberty because the cost of converting the fry oil from the restaurant to bio-diesel is only $0.70 a gallon. We got a guy that does it for us locally. I'm starting to strongly consider the idea myself!

[PSUsouthpaw]

My boss is buying a diesel Liberty because the cost of converting the fry oil from the restaurant to bio-diesel is only $0.70 a gallon. We got a guy that does it for us locally. I'm starting to strongly consider the idea myself!

If more restaurants started doing that, you'd eventually be able to get a burger, fries and a shake alongside of a few gallons of fuel for under $10.



(assuming you're driving a compatible vehicle)

[tharptroy]

And diesel's can run on vegetable oil.

In all honesty, with the extreme complexity of the whole Hybrid fad, I just don't see the manufacturers making any real profit off of them. If the EPA wasn't full of a bunch of shipdits diesels would have been more popular here.


mmm...crower cycle diesels

[hyunelan2]

Whether they be more like a diesel generator driving electic motors in the wheels,


I'm pretty-sure this is how trains work. They've got butt-tons of power.

[CornbreadXD]

2009-10 diesel veracruz

[BobMs_wht2k2]

I'm pretty-sure this is how trains work. They've got butt-tons of power.

The train, like most diesel-electrics, runs the diesel engine in it's most efficient operating range. This allows them to get maximum economy and durability while usingthe electric engine to start, stop and change speeds.

Personally, if they want to use an electric hybrid this is the pattern to use. Any internal combustion engine has a small operating range where they achieve maximum efficiency. That's why the city cycle sucks gas so bad because you're forced to use it in the range where it is most inefficient.

Had toyoduh or anyone else for that matter come up with that style of "hybrid", I'd be all for it. But then, it just doesn't sound cool like "Hybrid Synergy Drive" does it?

[kylemorg]

The main problem I see is the size of the coil you'd need to vary the amperage to the motors, although with PID digital controllers it might not be a problem.

Imagine having a car with a small gas or diesel powered generator and four electric traction motors -- one on each wheel. There's your regerative braking, all wheel drive, continuously variable "transmission" and ABS system all in one. The generator could be tuned to achieve high efficiency AS A GENERATOR rather than being used as a drive motor, as BobM pointed out. The car's center of gravity would be lower since the motors would be at wheel height. Plus, you loose the weight of the transmission which would help offset some of the weight of the batteries.

I've always thought the standard combustion engine / electric assist hybrid system was very backwards.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

^ Agreed. It's like they took a look at what worked and then did it backwards. Then threw in some wierd complex crap and viola. . . we have the prius.

[ArunSenior04]

Diesel cars get better gas mileage, but I dont see them being a much better alternative to regular gas cars. Around here, diesel is maybe .10-.15 cheaper than regular unleaded. If more people started using diesel, who's to say we wont be paying out the *** for it? Sounds like a temporary fix for a permanent problem. (i.e. The cost of diesel will eventually be higher than what you are paying now for reg. unleaded. It's already a $1 more than what I payed for 87 octane back in Feb.)

Hybrid technology is interesting. Toyota has obviously proved the demand hybrid cars, not to sure about trucks. As technology advances, Im sure we'll see more incredible vehicles that more reliant on alternative fuel types.

On a side note, there is a yearly Prius contest. These guys mod their Priuses, and are getting around 250 mpg. That is amazing. When you are using 1 gallon of gas, every 250 miles, you prolly dont even have to use gasoline. You could prolly use E85, or diesel, since the majority of the power is coming from the electricity.

[sciphi]

Link to that contest, please! I'd love to see what those guys are doing to their cars!

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Consider this, the average diesel car gets about 30% better economy than it's gasoline counterpart. It will spend the majority of it's time in it's most inefficient rpm range because of the need to accelerate/decel.

Now, put that small diesel, one about half of the normal size needed by todays standards and put it into it's efficient range ALL the time to power a generator. You can run this on bio diesel which is 100% renewable IIRC. It will have the instant torque of the electric motors to pull and carry around passengers, it is not reliant on a battery soley for power making it a viable option in the northern climates and it can run on a renewable resource.

Pluss, by putting a smaller engine into it's peak efficiency I personally believe you could smoke the Prius and any other common hybrid out of the water and still have a peppy, fun car to drive.

[ArunSenior04]

This is what I was getting at.

From Discovery Channel's Future Cars. The Opel Eco-Speedster. BioDiesel Hybrid that gets 113mpg driving at 124mph:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mvKYUM5NkWk

Hybrid cars are amazing. And the market for them is growing. With engineers getting nearly 250MPG out of Prius, the future is open to all kinds of improvements. Cars like the Prius, to the Opel, show just how diverse alternative fuel vehicles can be.

Planning the future around diesel/biodiesel only cars is nonsense.

[cbrmale]

I personally don't think hybrids have a long-term future. They are very complex and expensive to manufacture, the petrol consumption costs over the life of the car are less, but when it comes time to replace the batteries - well! I think the life of the batteries are baout five to seven years and the replacement costs run into thousands.

Clean diesel engines are one area, although anyone who has been to Europe will testify to the gritty and sooty air of the cities there, and most of that grit and soot is particulate pollution from diesel engines. Reducing sulphur is only one part of cleaning diesel engines, reducing particulate emissions is much harder to do. Particulate filters work to a point, but there is a long way to go.

Another option is the direct injection petrol engine, as featured in my new Opel Astra. In this case there is no throttle butterfly, acceleration is achieved by increasing fuel pressure to injectors which are mounted adjacent to the spark plug in the centre of the cylinder. At full throttle and peak revs, my Astra runs a maximum pressure of 100 bar. Direct injection also enables lean mixtures at low-load operation by placing the fuel charge exactly where it needs to be in the cylinder. At idle, the air-fuel ratio of the Astra is 67:1, but it increases towards the ideal 14:1 as the load on the engine increases.

Having done all that, it is certainly an economical car for the engine size (2.2 litres) and performance, but not remarkably so. My peak-hour commuting is in a city with very free-flowing traffic, where speed rarely drops below 80km/h, so the engine rarely drops into super-lean mode. Maybe in more congested driving, the difference might be more noticeable. But I am not complaining about the performance, especially the low-speed torque. When you drive out of a slow-speed corner with the automatic in fourth and the engine pulling easy at 1,200rpm, it feels like you are driving a diesel except that it will rev all the way to 6,000 if you want it to. An impressive engine for city, highway and back-road driving to say the least.

[Cypher]

i still like diesels :tongue:

[cbrmale]

The first time I went to London it was mid-August and it was warm and humid. I remember walking to Kings Cross station in the early evening, and I noticed the back of my hands were sweating. Stick to the sweat were specks of black, indeed my hands were mottled with black. The black is, of course, diesel car soot. Other cities I visited at that time (1990), especially Paris, were just as bad.

That was a while ago and newer diesel cars now have particulate filters. Despite that, there is only so much of the soot that can be removed, and it is all the more worrying that diesel soot is cancer-causing.

It remains to be seen if diesel engines can be made as clean as petrol engines. Probably not is my understanding. If diesel engines are seen in larger numbers in our cities, we may see a return to the days of the early 1970's, before the introduction of ever-more-stringent exhaust emission controls.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

OK. . . I'll go into this once again. . .

The "perfect" setup for ANY hybrid set up is going to be a dummy engine running at it's peak efficiency turning a generator topower the battery pack. . .like a diesel locomotive basically. The electric motors and battery pack can run the vehicle at any desired speed, accelerate, stop, just like what we are used to in a standard gasoline engined vehicle.

Running the biodiesel which has almost none of the same sooty properties (If I have read correctly) that petroleum based diesel has at it's peak efficiency range to power a generator is a win-win. No particualte matter, renewable energy AND phenomenal fuel economy.

Now, any internal combustion engine has an extremely narrow window where it runs at it's cleanest and most efficient state. The compromise all engineers have to make is being able to run the engine in a wide range of conditions to accomodate accel/decel and all types of traffic. sO THEY HAVE TO MAKE A compromise in efficiency and emissions to accomodate all of our varied needs. Even the Prius is technically not designed correctly in this respect.

So. . . . . a small 2-3cyl diesel burning biodiesel turning an electric motor powering the electricity to power the car is by far the simplest, most efficient and cleanest option we have. But yet no one has steeped up to the plate to offer it to us.

[sciphi]

Mmm...french-fry-oil-powered cars...

At least people could say they were doing something good for the planet if they were running to Mickey D's for every meal. In their biodiesel hybrid. Be better to literally run there, but after running Mickey D's is not appealing, even if the grease went to making biodiesel.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Actually, biodiesel is more than cookingoil. Bio diesel is yet another product from soybeans.

[Ugzz]

i want the fusion power from back to the future where you jsut throw trash into it.. thats the way to go!

[hyunelan2]

i want the fusion power from back to the future where you jsut throw trash into it.. thats the way to go!

http://www.outatime.it/public/40-mr_fusion.jpg

[Cypher]

they also sell kits for older VWs and mercedes to convert it to run off WVO (waste vegetable oil) and even such things as bacon grease. With some of the kits apparently it can be ran off damn near anything: gas, diesel, bio diesel, the aforementioned vegetable oil.

[cbrmale]

Diesel locomotives have very large capacity (150 litre) slow-revving engines connected to an ac alternator via a set of gears. The alternator is wired directly to the traction motors, no batteries involved. To go faster, opening the throttle increases engine revs, which increases electrical current, which increases electrical power to the axles. The reason for the electrical connection is that there is no mechanical torque converter or clutch that can handle loco power and train weight. Indeed, a loco driver has to be careful when moving off lest he rip the auto-coupler out of the front wagon!

A hybrid diesel, therefore, is not anything like a diesel-electric loco, but I understand the idea.

Getting back to hybrid petrol engines, my understanding is the aesthetic Japanese dislike diesel engines, dismissing them as dirty and noisy. Given diesel cars are off the menu for the domestic Japanese market, hybrids were one option to improve car efficiency. In Europe, everything seems to be diesel or turbo-diesel, including many sports model cars. They are more fuel-efficiency aware, because fuel prices are relatively expensive compared to average incomes.

Hyundai have taken a different tack. Even though diesel cars are banned in South Korea, they have developed a range of turbo-diesel engines for the European versions of their cars, including the Elantra and i30. All Hyundai need to do now is develop European-style steering, handling and braking and - who knows?

[kylemorg]

Sorry, this is a bit off topic...

All Hyundai need to do now is develop European-style steering, handling and braking and - who knows?

Compared to most US cars, Hyundai's DO have virtually European style steering, handling and braking...

[BobMs_wht2k2]

^ While that may have been true 5 years ago, it's not so much anymore. GM, and chysler have developed some nice handling vehicles.

[kylemorg]

True enough, Bob.

Perhaps we should buy an Accent with a blown engine or transmission, four traction motors, some control circuitry and a gas-electric or diesel-electric generator and build our own true 4 wheel drive, transmissionless, regenerative braking hybrid.

[hyunelan2]

True enough, Bob.

Perhaps we should buy an Accent with a blown engine or transmission, four traction motors, some control circuitry and a gas-electric or diesel-electric generator and build our own true 4 wheel drive, transmissionless, regenerative braking hybrid.

Then sell the design to BP, Mobile, Shell, etc. so they can put it on a shelf and hide it from the public.