Global warming !!!

[slyderdai]

I believe in global warming like i do santa clause!!!! But holy hell it's hot out i spent 10 hours of my day since 7 am outside cutting concrete and digging with the backhoe. Then waiting setting a 22 foot pole in the ground and waiting til 3 pm for the guy to show up from the concrete place with a damned truck to pour my base. In the meantime i did some maintainence around the store that is going in wth the sign we are putting up. i lost i believe 9.78 lbs today!!!!!!!!!! I drank 2 gallons of water before noon time. now explain to me it's this hot out in the middle of june and we had freezing temps in april. so whats it going to be i wish mother nature would figure out wtf she's doin and get comfortable dammit....oh and my air conditioner just died on me thats what I am upset with now.

[BColeman]

^ I just did a research project for one of my classes, specifically on effects on the environment.

I hate to say this, but unfortunately, Mother Nature isn't going to make up her mind just yet. Let's call this payback for all the **** we've done to her over the last 75 years.

Two years ago, I was saying Global Warming is a joke. After doing some research, and asking a lot of questions, we are in a far worse position than people truly believe.

On a side note, I do believe you lost at least that 9 pounds, and it's a good think you were pounding that water away.

[slyderdai]

water is all i drink besides the occaisional sp? orange juice at breakfast and milk with supper. But I do drink atleast 10 gallons per week in the summer/winter its usually maybe a gallon a week.


I also think i'm changing my mind about this whole global warming issue. i have done some research on both sides of the argument. and am leaning toward the we're ****ed side i try to recycle and not litter and hardly every turn lights on in the house during the day but that could just be me trying to save money on light bill? But i'd really hate for my kids to not be able to enjoy some of the things i did when i was a kid. I'm only 26 and have noticed alot of things aren't were they once were.(we had a natural resevoir near my grandma's house that was atleast 15 feet deep that has completely dried up)


Okay i'm done hugging the trees
But this thing isn't gonna fix itself!

[BColeman]

No doubt. I am 28, and I feel the some parts of the world (Florida and Virginia, only 2 places I've lived long enough to call home) have become **** holes.

I live in NC, and they are on the top ten lists in regards to worst energy efficiency and worst pollution. I just started to Recycle. There isn't any active recycling in my apartment complex. So, I've been bagging up the bottles, cans, and such, and I'm taking them over to the in-laws house once a week for them to put with their recycleables. I mean, it's not much, but if I do my part, maybe others will to.

[PSUsouthpaw]

Not, it is quite real, and we are quite f***ed, yet no one will admit it. sadly enough, rather than banding together, we have people like Al Gore, who make movies yet still live in homes that are hellishly wasteful and inefficient.

Theres no panacea to the problem, it involves lifestyle changes and a lot of grassroots solutions, including to plant and maintain more trees anywhere possible.

[ArunSenior04]

Im sure people will chime in. But the interesting thing about global warming, is that it is self sustaining. Meaning, once it starts, you have to create a greater counter active thing to stop it. Thats because as global warming increases, it only makes it harder to end. As the globe gets warmer, the enviroment and atmosphere is changed, to make it occur even faster.

[WytchDctr]

and there is also a ton of evidence that says it'll sling shot the other way... and no I am not talking about that movie. :D

[BColeman]

^ I agree. But there's some additional information that is necessary to let out for everyone to understand.

Though you are correct, there is one thing we have no control over. That would be the SUN. Over the last 20 years or so, the solar flares haven't gotten larger, last longer, and are increasingly doing more damage to our atmosphere. Even if we had no hole in the ozone layer, this damage would still occur.

One good thing is that these major solar flares are not coming at as all the time, so we are still okay, and they may subside in the near future. It's kind of like the sun is hiccuping.

[PSUsouthpaw]

Either way, we need to start dealing with what we've done.

Either way, we need to start dealing with the consequences of our actions.

o that end, I'm going to go out tomorrow and get some pots, soil and maybe a bit of plant food. Than, once I eat my apple with lunch, drop the seeds in and get them started.

[ArunSenior04]

What is interesting, is if the sun blew out right now, we would now for a few minutes.

lol

[BColeman]

^ Are you trying to say that if the sun blew out, it would take several minutes before we knew it???

While that may be true, we'd know a little ahead of time. There are 2 telescopes trained on the sun, at all times. They are multi-multi-million dollar, very special telecscopes that can look at the sun. They are somewhere else in the world though, I do not believe the U.S. has one.



Hey Jared, planting those apple seeds is certainly doing your part. And thank you for being so environmentally friendly. Give back 10 fold for what you take away, that's my motto. And I feel if the entire world would give back at least twice what they take away, we could overcome all of this.


Did you all know that if 3rd world countries had the medication and technology they needed to bring themselves into the 21st century, they would be world leaders in Environmentalism? I'll tell you why this is true:

1) They cannot at this time protect their natural environments, so the "white man" rapes it.

2) They do not possess the medication and supplies they need to sustain life and educate themselves in the ways of the world. (On a side note, did you all know that pharmecuetical companies have within their power, the power to heal these people? Did you know they don't, because they would not get a return on their investment? Did you know, that's why we pay all these high prescription prices, to cover their research for medicines they do not make use of?)

3) 3rd world countries, given the power to overcome their situations, would defend what is theirs, would create power sources, cities, etc., totally without more than 5% negative effect on the environment. We sit here today, every day, 80% negatively affecting our environment.

Third world countries have the opportunity to do it right the first time, and change the world for us. But no one helps them, because "it's too expensive" and "we'll have no return on our investment". Man, what a crock of sh1t!!! That return would be our children's grandchildren living in a world that none of us could believe would exist.

[ArunSenior04]

Wow, dropping some knowledge there. South America and Africa suffer today from the effects of European colonization.

[BColeman]

^ And their greediness.

[ArunSenior04]

^ And their greediness.

Well essentially yes. Africa and South America were pretty much purged of any natural resources that was of value. So instead of the resource being used to help the producing country progress, it was spent on the other side of the world for imperialism in the name of religion. This is why places liek Africa and S. America are so far behind. They werent able to prosper from the fruits of their own labor.

[BColeman]

Very true. In places like Nigeria, the fruits of their labor result in civil war, civil unrest, and the worst case of scams the world has ever seen. You want to talk about black market, forget China, start in Nigeria. Man, that country needs some help.

[ArunSenior04]

Very true. In places like Nigeria, the fruits of their labor result in civil war, civil unrest, and the worst case of scams the world has ever seen. You want to talk about black market, forget China, start in Nigeria. Man, that country needs some help.

The reason for many of the disputes is that when Arica was "carved" up by the Euro countries at the Berlin Conference (might not be berlin), they didnt take into account the different tribes. Then in cases like Rwanda, "special" opportunities were given to certain ethnicities, which produced a hostile undertone among the the varying tribes, until something came and set that anger into motion. (ie genocide)

[PSUsouthpaw]

^ Are you trying to say that if the sun blew out, it would take several minutes before we knew it???

While that may be true, we'd know a little ahead of time. There are 2 telescopes trained on the sun, at all times. They are multi-multi-million dollar, very special telecscopes that can look at the sun. They are somewhere else in the world though, I do not believe the U.S. has one.



Hey Jared, planting those apple seeds is certainly doing your part. And thank you for being so environmentally friendly. Give back 10 fold for what you take away, that's my motto. And I feel if the entire world would give back at least twice what they take away, we could overcome all of this.


Did you all know that if 3rd world countries had the medication and technology they needed to bring themselves into the 21st century, they would be world leaders in Environmentalism? I'll tell you why this is true:

1) They cannot at this time protect their natural environments, so the "white man" rapes it.

2) They do not possess the medication and supplies they need to sustain life and educate themselves in the ways of the world. (On a side note, did you all know that pharmecuetical companies have within their power, the power to heal these people? Did you know they don't, because they would not get a return on their investment? Did you know, that's why we pay all these high prescription prices, to cover their research for medicines they do not make use of?)

3) 3rd world countries, given the power to overcome their situations, would defend what is theirs, would create power sources, cities, etc., totally without more than 5% negative effect on the environment. We sit here today, every day, 80% negatively affecting our environment.

Third world countries have the opportunity to do it right the first time, and change the world for us. But no one helps them, because "it's too expensive" and "we'll have no return on our investment". Man, what a crock of sh1t!!! That return would be our children's grandchildren living in a world that none of us could believe would exist.

Its really easy to give back to the world in terms of being enviromentally friendly, people just don't take the time to be educated.

All my lightbulbs at school are compact flourescent 13 watters, which even with two going put off a similar amount of light compared to the 100 Watt bulbs I used to have. They cost a little bit more, but they last longer and waste less energy than regular incandescent bulbs. Wasting less energy also means you pay less too.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

This is all I'm going to say:

We've been monitoring the worlds climate in a scientific manner for about 300 years. The world, at best guess, is several hundred BILLION years old. The universe more than that.

So, in essence you're trying to tell me that you can take a nano-second from my life and be able to predict what is going to happen for the next 100 years?

Don't forget, GW is big business and the squeaky wheel gets the grease, even if it doesn't need grease.

Also keep in mind that the sun plays a larger part in our climate than anyother factor. The time of the dinosaurs was widely accepted to be about 20 degrees warmer overall than what we are experienceing now. Add in the fact that there have been several ice ages that we are still warming up from and what do you have? A whole lotta nothing.

We don't have any more ideas about what the global climate is going to do in the next 10 years than the man in the moon. GW's top reseachers cannot even replicate the last 10 years of climate changes in the same models that we're supposed to believe are predicting a global meltdown from. Yeah, great junk science there.

[kylemorg]

My wife and my motto is "Kill a neighbor, plant a tree". ;)

The only way to stop human effects on the environment is for all the humans to go away. Don't have kids, or have only one kid per family.

I'd love to see the "proof" that global warming is happening, and the "proof" that we're causing it, and the "proof" that reducing CO2 outputs will reduce it.

Before you jump all over me, please at least browse through these articles by Michael Chrichton:
http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speech-complexity.html and
http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speech-ourenvironmentalfuture.html

He describes it more eloquently that I ever could. Basically, all the historical data descirbes correlations, not cause and effect relationships. Correlation does not imply cause and effect, nor does it indicate which is the cause and which is the effect.

As BColeman said, the solar activity has been at a long time peak over the last 20 years. Increases in the amount of energy hitting the earth from the sun obviously affects our climate, since the sun is our primary source of heat. Of course you'll never hear a "climate scientist" acknowledge that fact because they can't blame anybody for it and can't offer a solution for it.

I am not an expert in the environment, but I do understand that it isn't as easy as "Reduce CO2 emissions, lower the temperature." That's BS.

Remember two things about all of the "Global Warming" scare stuff:
1. It's brought to you by the same scientists that told us we were going to hit "The next ice age" in the 70's and 80's.
2. If they cause fear and interest in the climate, the climate scientists themselves get more research grant money and employment opportunities.

If you had the opportunity to make your job seem indispensible to your employer or the government and could pretty much write your own paycheck, wouldn't you do it?



:abovelol: I just saw Bob's post appear when I submitted mine. Hey Bob, are you sure you're not my evil twin? (or MAYBE I am YOUR evil twin... Hmmm...)

[PSUsouthpaw]

Whether its happening or not, we should take this seriously and start to conserve and change our ways. Even if its not tomorrow, at some point we are going to run dangeously low on resources, and much death and damnation will occur if we are not careful.

Now is the time to partake of sensible energy policy and development. Bob, I applaud ou for your interest in the wind turbine for your home. If more people looked into similar things, we would be moving forward to sustainable living a lot faster than we are now.

Also, check out this, there are some interesting projects here

http://www.engr.psu.edu/cfs/

[BColeman]

I've heard the arguments from both sides, and I've even made some myself in regards to the state of the environment.

However, it is a real thing, and we all should be conscious of our effects on the environment.

I'm an Eagle Scout, and one of the things I learned was that we had to impact the area we were at as little as possible to preserve it. And that's what we all should be doing, attempt to make the area we are at appear as though we weren't there.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

But we ARE here. Kinda hard to negate that fact.

[kylemorg]

Remember, whenever they say that we humans alone are causing this warming, and that it's all due to our CO2 emissions -- warming cycles and ice ages have happened at least six times on this planet before humans lived in this fashion. All of those events occurred before humans were here, so how did we cause those warming periods and ice ages?

Please don't take my post to mean that I believe that we shouldn't try to be efficient in our use of energy. I, too believe that we should attempt to reduce our impact on the earth.

I learned part of that from my Dad. In the house he built in 1980 (two geodesic domes), we had passive cooling tubes in the foundation to cool the air in the summer and warm in the winter. We had a greenhouse containing hundreds of gallons of water in barrels to absorb the heat in the daytime and discharge it during the night in the winter. We had solar water heating panels on the roof, both to heat the water heater and to warm the floors in the winter.

I'm trying minimize my impact on the environment by driving fuel efficient vehicles and living close to work to minimize driving. I also have low wattage flourescent bulbs in all of the non-dimming light fixtures in my house, I have a high efficiency furnace on a programmed thermostat, I have no whole house air, and I am insulating my house (built in 1925 -- no original insulation). Part of it is to save money and improve comfort, too, of course.

In addition, by not having children, my wife and I are not contributing to another generation of hugely resource consuming humans. Unfortunately, there are just too many darn people on this planet. There are far more humans than there would be if we were still hunter-gatherers like other animals.

The thing to remember is that if the climate does change (which it will on it's own whether or not we have a measurable impact), the earth will survive. A lot of the animal and plant life will survive, and probably some of the humans will survive. It won't be the "end of the world", but it might simply mean the end of the global human civilization.

[cobase]

Quick poll: How many experts in climate science do we have in this thread? I'm not one.
Also, I wouldn't bring up "it's been so [hot/dry/wet/rainy] this [year/week/day] in [insert state/county/neighborhood/part of the house] that I now [believe/disbelieve] in global warming." There's no way our very limited, local, short-lived, completely un-scientific observations are going to have any bearing on a 0.4C increase in the planet's average temperature in three decades.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Climatology? Sun research? Meteorolgists? That's the problem. Too many sciences that overlap but no one puttin it all together.

It's like a Car mechanic diagnosing a heart condition. Or your plumber diagnosing your indigestion.

[kylemorg]

Quick poll: How many experts in climate science do we have in this thread? I'm not one.

Boy, That's for SURE! cobase isn't an expert in anyting! :rolleyes: ;)

J/K


Agreed. With a system as complex as the global climate and the exteme, IMO only someone of Stephen Hawking's caliber would have a chance of making heads or tails of it all... obviously that excludes all politicians and most weathermen (er... excuse me... climate scientists) from being capable of understanding it, making judgements about the cause (if any) and recommending real solutions (if necessary / possible).

[BobMs_wht2k2]

It won't matter. In 5 years a huge meteor will hit the planet covering us in ash and dust creating another ice age.

[tharptroy]

kylemorg, you're probably doing the world a disservice by not breeding. this trend by educated people to have less and less children just means that the dregs of society are outbreeding you like mad...so all of your conservation efforts will just go to ensure a future for people who didnt have one to start with.

[cobase]

It won't matter. In 5 years a huge meteor will hit the planet covering us in ash and dust creating another ice age.

There I agree; asteroids are a much more catastrophic than a little climate change. We should be investing more in surveillance and defense against asteroids, just to prove we really are smarter than the dinosaurs.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

kylemorg, you're probably doing the world a disservice by not breeding. this trend by educated people to have less and less children just means that the dregs of society are outbreeding you like mad...so all of your conservation efforts will just go to ensure a future for people who didnt have one to start with.

My wife and I think the same on both accounts. We're not having kids and we're saddened by the fact that only the stupid people (with a few exceptions) are popping them out by the hundreds.

Fact of the matter, the sun could explode tomorrow and make this all a moot point. Seriously, we aren't even a speck of dust on a hummer in relation to the rest of the universe and we're kidding ourselves to think otherwise.

[PSUsouthpaw]

Either way, Kylemorg, thats a great tactic with the dome home. Wish more people would do something like that.

[BColeman]

Yes, the CO2 problem has been around for millions of years. Dinosaurs put out more CO2 than we do, and they aren't around for us to blame anymore. So we have no choice but to blame ourselves.

Some choose not to believe it's a real problem, and others choose to believe it is a real problem. I tend to flip flop when I meet new information, because of the credibility issue.

As far as not having kids, well, that's everyone's choice right there. I have 4 kids, and I wanted these children. Their impact on the environment is far less than the other Catholics I know with 8 to 12 kids. I'm Catholic too, so I can say that.

Bob, you said We Are Here. D a m n right we are. But we have a responsibility too, and it's up to all of us to do our part. Do you agree, or no?

[BobMs_wht2k2]

I think the thing tha tburns my butt more than a 4' flame is that most . . .let me rephrase. . . alot of the whacko greenies that believe everything Al Gore puts on his interweb tend to think that if you don't believe we are the cause of climate change than you're a gas guzzlin, tree killin', yard pavin', non-recycling arsehole with no concern.

Tell me ANYWHERE in all of my sometimes incoherent ramblings where I've said that we shouldn't conserve what we can. Why do you think I despise these hybrids and their massive battery packs that if not handled correctly will cause more environmenat damage than 10 8100 V8 Suburban Z71's combined? Because they are an environmental nightmare in the long term.

Don;t forget I'm the wierdo that wants a wind generator.

[BColeman]

Hell yeah man, I'll take 3 wind generators, so I can power the whole neighborhood.

I completely agree, Hybrid vehicles are certainly dangerous pieces of machinery, especially when driven by the old folks. Hey, you are getting up there aren't you, so you might be one of those people pretty soon:D Just kidding.

No, you are right, I read your posts, and you have said you'd do your part.

I am not one of those Al Gore followers, or a tree hugger. A prime example is the fact that though I want to clean the environment, I still want a Skyline GT-R, no cats, pushing 600 HP, and my Elantra, in much the same condition. I hate cats on cars, they are power robbers.

I have limits on the vulnerablity of the environment, and limits on what I'll do to help it. You won't find me picketing a business that dumps waste, or a power plant burning too much coal. You will find me flooring it up the highway on ramp racing an 18 wheeler doing 75 mph.

[tharptroy]

I think if you're at a point where you "need" to take your cats off, you're probably racing (real racing)...or a ricer.

just put a 4" exhaust on your skyline (with cat) and I'm sure you'll be fine.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

^ With the exception of the ol turd, every other project I have had, DD whatever I have reinstalled cats.

To be honest, the newer GM LQ/LS style truck engines make the best torque WITH the cats all while making mondo amounts of HP. Dual 4" Random Technologies cats aren't going to rob much if any HP IMO.

Shoot, even my 9C1 I had in/right out of college was better than new. I removed all of GM's A.I.R. crap (which in and of itself was a sheer joke on the EPA), installe mid length headers, dual 2" cats and true duals/glasspacks out the back. On the mobile sniffer it had LESS HC emissions than it should have had in 1989 and the car had 160k miles on it.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. . . can some one help me find my Geritol ( :P )

[BColeman]

I was only saying that when it comes to cars, I am one of the most environmentally unfriendly people in the world. I support racing, I love racing, and I love cars.

And no, a GT-R with even one cat will be sorely abused by the driver. Those motors need to breath. When I own mine (someday), it will be a 4" exhaust, straight through, shooting 5 foot flames upon deceleration. Believe it or not, but that's my whole goal with it. I want to fry people with the exhaust. No not really, but it is pretty cool.

And Bob, you are right. There are quite a few vehicles out there that greatly benefit from the added restriction. My car was just recently without a muffler, and not only was it loud, it was slow, dirt slow. I do have a cat, but with the header and nothing else, there was absolutely no torque. One other vehicle I can think of that benefits greatly from having a cat is the old Buick Grand Nationals. Even though they are boosted, tq. can go through the roof with just a little bit of added restriction.

[PSUsouthpaw]

New TV show: Bcoleman on the streets of Salem. It'll be just like one of those shows with cars that have super upgrades and abilities, but his crime fighting tactic will be to fry the bad guys with his flaming exhaust...

[ArunSenior04]

I dunno if you guys saw the Discovery Channel series "Building the Future," but in it, they discussed the little known fact on how buildings cause more more co2 polution than all the cars + something (has escaped my mind atm) combined. This is because the majority of energy used to power houses, factories, skyscrapers, etc, is created through mostly coal. The most inefficient country is Australia. To run a computer for a year in Australia, it would take the energy company nearly 1200 lbs of coal to create the energy.

[kylemorg]

Here's a fairly reasonable article about global warming: http://brneurosci.org/co2.html

I also found another one (that I can't find today) that had a good point about CO2. CO2 absorbs infrared light almost exclusively. The sun does not radiate infrared radiation -- it is only re-radiated by objects that can absorb the longer sun light wavelengths and then emit infrared.

The amount of CO2 already in the air absorbs virtually all of the infrared radiated by the earth in something like 33 meters of distance through the air (if I remember correctly). If all the infrared radiation is being absorbed by the amount of CO2 in the air, then adding more CO2 cannot absorb more radiation -- it can only shorten the distance the infrared travels before being absorbed.

If that premise is true, the change of the heat distribution between the lower air space versus the higher air spaces (across that 33 meter distance) might change weather patterns slightly. However, it would mean that CO2 emissions are not what we should be trying to reduce.

[BColeman]

New TV show: Bcoleman on the streets of Salem. It'll be just like one of those shows with cars that have super upgrades and abilities, but his crime fighting tactic will be to fry the bad guys with his flaming exhaust...

I'm in. You can be my sidekick, with your Autotraggic XD2 riding side by side towards the sunset in the desert like Knight Rider. Except, you can't shoot flames, you protect the innocents that if I get too carried away.


I dunno if you guys saw the Discovery Channel series "Building the Future," but in it, they discussed the little known fact on how buildings cause more more co2 polution than all the cars + something (has escaped my mind atm) combined. This is because the majority of energy used to power houses, factories, skyscrapers, etc, is created through mostly coal. The most inefficient country is Australia. To run a computer for a year in Australia, it would take the energy company nearly 1200 lbs of coal to create the energy.

Australia = dirty. Not the country, put their consumption of natural resources and their abuse of the environment. It was just on the Science Channel two days ago, they built a new coal plant, supposedly to better power a section of the country. There is another gentleman in Australia that is designing a power grid that uses exclusively Mirrors to trap the hot gases underneath. The hot gases travel up, but their only escape is through fans in a tower. The hot gases have their own energy, so they escape through these fans, powering them, and those fans in turn create power through generators. It's supposed to be built somewhere on 300+ acres in the Australian outback. It is said that is can power all of Sydney by itself.

[jalmir]

I'll add only one thing (didn't even read the whole topic! lollll)


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7299668110171032533

[tharptroy]

if its the only way to convince stupid people to conserve natural resources....then so be it.

alot of people need fear as a driving force to do the things that they should already be doing...religion has been doing this for millenia;)

[cobase]

That's an interesting video, but here is some criticism of it, too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle#Reception_and_cri ticism
The main criticisms are that their explanations (cosmic rays, solar flares) have already been considered and ruled out and that they omitted new data that doesn't fit their idea. Also, the oceanographer interviewed in the film threatened to sue for misrepresentation. Also an interesting read.

[Alucardabyss]

I hope all of you are powering your computers with bicycles with generators attached. I know I'm not.