Amsoil engine oil in our engines?

[RotaMan99]

I did a quick search but only came up with Amsoil transfluid discussions.

Im wondering if there is anything about our engines that would make switching to Amsoil engine oil and filter usless.

For example, rotary engines contaminate the oil with fuel on a regular basis so there is now way you can extend the oil change intervals.

I drive a lot of miles so im looking more into this if I can get 5000 or 10,000 miles on the oil instead of 3000.

[ricerrx7]

You can do extended intervals with our engines. But I would stick with OEM filters.

[dmiller66]

Amsoil? I've used it for the last 100,000 miles in my '02....with their filter. I did my oil changes at 25,000 intervals. Problems?? None. Money and time saved? Lots. I use the AMO 10w40 with the EA 020 Amsoil filter. I recently took my valve cover off to change the gasket, and I got a look at the valvetrain....clean as a whistle. I currently have 129,000 miles on my '02 and it never uses oil.

[RotaMan99]

Thats great. I was going to use their filters since they use synthetic meterial which helps greatly with the extended intervals.

[dmiller66]

Yeah, you should go for it. Once you use Amsoil, you won't go back. Go online and do a search for Amsoil testimonials....lots of satisfied users out there!

[Tommy]

shew...25k miles. I dont care if it does work, that kinda freaks me out.

I do mobile1 full synth at 9-10k mile intervals with a hyundai filter. Hoping its a good combo.

[Robert1955]

http://www.elantraxd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26616
This is the link to my post under group deals. It has plenty of info for you to look over about the motor oils that work best in our Hyundai's. PM me if you have any specific questions or want more information.

Here is a link to the Amsoil product page for your 2005 Elantra.
http://www.amsoil.com/scripts/runisa.dll?amsoiloaf.644546806:RIGHTPANEL:28252676 4:ELANT,HI,B,3442

[2loud2k2xd]

ams oil now + their filter ill go about 12000 before i change it. oh, i just hot 100030 miles today. woo hoo, the 100,000 mile club.

i used a full synthetic (either mobile1 or castrol syntec) and changed every 3500 miles since 40000 miles. i got free syn oil from work :D

[RotaMan99]

Mobil 1 is another great oil that if only one step under Amsoil if you read all their testing.

I have used Amsoil in the past but never noticed its potential in my oil contaminating machine :(

Thanks again for the info Robert1955 :)

[HYTECH]

just remember no matter what oil you use if you have engine problems and want any type of warranty repair you will need receipts for you oil changes and if they don't add up to around 5,000 mile intervals you will not be covered.

[2loud2k2xd]

just remember no matter what oil you use if you have engine problems and want any type of warranty repair you will need receipts for you oil changes and if they don't add up to around 5,000 mile intervals you will not be covered.

im at 100,3xx miles now. im out of warranty, so all my old receipts dont mean squat anymore. :D i have an inch stack of oil change receipts from every 3000 miles.

[Robert1955]

just remember no matter what oil you use if you have engine problems and want any type of warranty repair you will need receipts for you oil changes and if they don't add up to around 5,000 mile intervals you will not be covered.
That is not a true statement. Any dealer that tries to point at a oil change interval as a reason to deny warranty work, and I do mean ligit warranty work not abuse, based on the interval will be burned in a court room. Expecially using 3,000 to 5,000 miles as a interval. Our owners manual even tells us 7,500 is perfectly fine.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

. . . Money and time saved? Lots. . .

Time? Takes 10 minutes to do an oil change. 100k miles, that's 20 oil changes. So you saved 3 hours in 6 years. Or 30 minutes a year, or 2minutes 30 seconds a month. 8 SECONDS A DAY.

Money? $17 filter, plus $8.50/qt oil x4 quarts =$51. THat's 4 oil changes the "normal" way. I did 5k OCI so you saved 1 oil change every 25k miles, or about $10. So you saved $40 in 6 YEARS. Or $6.67 a year, or 56 cents a month.

All to risk destroying an engine and voiding your warranty.

Sounds like you saved "lots" :rolleyes:

[jalmir]

^

lolllll

[BobMs_wht2k2]

That is not a true statement. Any dealer that tries to point at a oil change interval as a reason to deny warranty work, and I do mean ligit warranty work not abuse, based on the interval will be burned in a court room. Expecially using 3,000 to 5,000 miles as a interval. Our owners manual even tells us 7,500 is perfectly fine.

Not true. 7500 is "normal". 3000 is "severe". Read the requirements of both and you'll see that the MAJORITY of people fall into the "severe" category. Stop and go. Dust. Trips less than 20 miles. . . . You can fight it, but you WILL lose. It's happened dozens of times in the past. You're no exception.

[jalmir]

^ yup ... people tend to think "severe" means they have to beat the **** out of the car while "severe driving conditions" are ;


Severe driving conditions usually involve one or many of the following factors on a regular basis:

* Stop-and-go or city driving
* Trips of under 10 miles
* Dusty driving conditions
* Extremely cold weather
* Idling for long periods
* Carrying a heavy load or towing a trailer



and 95% of the population falls into severe ... and during a few months, 100% of northern americans/canadian (winter).

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Of course we wouldn't have any idea what we're talking about. We probably made up those statemements and have never been around any vehicular maintenance.

[jalmir]

^

true! AND we never saw someone PAYING a few K$ for an engine under warranty due to lack of maintenance (IE: no oil change for more than 25k miles, or running the car on break-in oil for 10k miles etc ...)

[Robert1955]

Not true. 7500 is "normal". 3000 is "severe". Read the requirements of both and you'll see that the MAJORITY of people fall into the "severe" category. Stop and go. Dust. Trips less than 20 miles. . . . You can fight it, but you WILL lose. It's happened dozens of times in the past. You're no exception.
Bob I hate to argue with you but my statement was correct. Hyundai says in the owner’s manual that a 7,500 OCI is acceptable! I did not categorize it by severe or normal I just said they are ok with 7,500 mile intervals in the proper application. I drive 60miles one way to work and while its not all highway its not City Street light after street light either. I average 44-50mph during a 3 day period back and forth to work. I had 300,000 miles on my Toyota 4x4, 150,000 on my Elantra, and put 50,000+ on an Oldsmobile Ciera in the last 15yrs. all vehicles used Synthetic oil, Castrol, Mobil 1, and Pennzoil Platinum and a 7,500 O.C.I. I also committed the cardinal sin, according to several people here, of using Fram oil filters most of the time. In over 500,000 miles of driving using the O.C.I. of 7,500 miles and synthetic oil I have never had a mechanical engine failure. And as for your statement "I WILL lose" I doubt it because I don't expect to have an issue that would put it to the test. My driving does not fit into the severe category, stop and go due to accidents, more than 1 or 2 days every couple of months so that is a non issue. I will also have oil sample testing that will show the condition of the oil that was drained at the 7,500+/- mark and they will show the oil was still in usable condition and could not have caused a mechanical failure due the oil breaking down and failing to do its job.
And to have a little more fun on this subject take a few minutes and search the web for service intervals in Europe. The same 3.3L that is in my Sonata has a 10,000 mile service recommendation from Hyundai. The only differences in the motors are the European ones have synthetic oil in the motor from the factory. BMW and Mercedes have 12,000 to 15,000 mile service intervals and they are looking to push that out even farther.

[dmiller66]

Yep, yep, yep. Amsoil...because its free.

[ricerrx7]

BMW and Mercedes have 12,000 to 15,000 mile service intervals and they are looking to push that out even farther.

So the technology that applies to 120,000 cars applies to Hyundai's? You're joking right? BMW's have oil quality sensors to see how the oil is doing. The interval is not a set interval. It depends on many factors.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

GM's oil life monitor on our truck considers our OCI to be about 8500-9000 miles. Even after 8700 miles (last oil change) the oil had it's amber color. After about 5k on the car (dino oil) the oil had lost it's color and was in need of a change. very dark.

Applying OCI for a MErcedes, or BMW or even the 3.3 Lambda to our Beta's is about as applicable as comparing a grape to a watermelon.

[kylemorg]

I've never had a mechanical engine failure, ever, after 21 years of driving, in any car. The worst thing that happened internally was that the valve guides and seals in our old '78 GMC truck's 350 CI V8 began to leak at around 85K miles. Oh, and the main bearing seal on my '89 Subaru Justy started leaking around 75K miles, but that was after putting mobil 1 in it for the first time at 60K miles which might have affected the seals.

My dad and I have always changed the oil in our cars at 3K to 6K mile intervals, using anything from Citgo brand to fancy "Mobil 1" full synthetic.

Engine failures due to poor oil changing intervals are uncommon under 100K miles. However, where you will see a problem is poor oil cleanliness / loss of detergency due to degredation / sludge buildup combined with high mileage. Most people who blow an engine or have major mechanical failures with a younger engine are because
1. They let the oil get too low or run out entirely
2. There was an infirmity in the engine components
3. They really beat on the engine (low RPM hill pulls with knock, continuous red-line RPM levels, etc.).

ALL lubricants and the added detergents react and break down over time when exposed to sustained high heat environments. Depending on the formulation, one may maintain their chemical / organic integrity longer than another. It's just a matter of when, and, like Bob said, how lazy you want to be about your oil change intervals.

Without a controlled scientific study of at least 3 vehicles of a given type per oil type under the same laboratory conditions with a thorough scientific engine wear analysis after the extended length test, any other information is purely anecdotal at besl and not worth arguing over.

If you want to try any oil and change it at 15K, 50K 100K, whatever, do it. You might not have a problem. To be safe, change your oil and filter at 3 to 6K miles and check it frequently to make sure it doesn't get low.

[dmiller66]

Your analysis is so far off...I dont even know where to begin. Let's start by saying that you drive 25,000 miles per year and that you change your oil every 5,000 miles, and that is costs $20 per OC, not including the time. After 100,000 miles you will have spent $400.00. I, on the other hand, would have spent $55 per 25,000 miles for a total of $220.00, saving $180.00. Let's extend it to six years. After six years, you would have spent $600.00 on OCs, and I will have spent $330.00, saving $270.00. Hmmm, let's see...throw away $270, or save it?? That's a tough one, I think I'll save it.

[KeWLKaT]

Let's see... Throw away an engine or 270$?


Hmmmmmmm

[jalmir]

yeah ... that's a hard one ... but I'll take the "always-a-clean-oil-cause-I-change-it-a-lot"

... If you can't afford 270$ over 100 000 miles then you shouldn't drive a car ...

[Robert1955]

So, ricerrx7 I looks to me like you are calling our Hyundai’s CRAP????, just because we only spent $13,000 – $20,000 dollars for them? Any car or truck motor that uses oil has the same needs and that is to protect the internal pieces from destroying themselves. Or is it once you break some ”Magic Price Point” they start to use the super special parts to make them worth it? I don’t think so. Many cars/trucks/SUV’s now have OLM’s installed so it’s not a super duper high dollar car thing. And who really knows exactly how the work? I have not had one so I have never looked into it but Bob stated in his post below yours that his GM goes about 8,500 to 9,000 miles before it says to change the oil. Hummmm, quite abit longer than 3,750 don’t ya think? I guess GM got some of the good stuff too?

Bob, I like my “grape” it’s bigger than yours. It is also only getting me 26.5 to 27.5 mpg vs. the 32-34 my Elantra gave me but there is such a size/power difference between the two I have no regrets. Anyway, my comment about Mercedes, or BMW was only to reflect that the “High End” manufactures have no problems with longer OCI’s and that even Hyundai says 10,000 miles for my 3.3 in Europe while still saying 3,750/7,500 here in the USA and they are the same motor! What gives?

I am not one of the Amsoil zealots that run around telling everyone to use it because it’s the best or that they can run it for 25,000 or even 35,000 and save lots of money. I just changed out my oil, a 0W-20 that’s rated by Amsoil for 25,000mile intervals, at 7,500miles to send out a sample to see just how good it is, and how much life is left in it. I am still restricted to the max recommendation by Hyundai of 7,500miles on my OCI’s because Amsoil requires you to use one of their high efficient filters, the EAO’s or have a bypass setup installed to be able to properly filter out the solids well enough to properly protect your motor. If I had not liked what I have read about Amsoil and from information I have received from various people that have used it for many years, one guy started it us it back in the middle 70’s in his trucking/heavy equipment business I would not have started to use it and would most likely be using Pennzoil Platinum today instead and as a matter of fact I have recommended to several people since I started selling Amsoil to use one of the Synthetics available from their normal oil changer rather than pushing them to buy from me and give it to the shop to install. As I said before I have well over 500,000miles of driving over the span of my last 3 cars using 7,500 mile OCI’s that I know there is not an issue and that in fact using a better constructed oil that longer intervals are perfectly safe, IN THE PROPER SITUATION. Someone that drives 3 miles a day 5 days a week should change it out at the 3 month mark because the water from the condensation and the fuel/combustion byproducts that make their way into the oil will never be burned off and they will just sit there and destroy the oil. Every motor is slightly different in the amount of wear and tear it inflicts on the oil and what works good for one motor may not be the best for the next, not that it’s bad but that another brand may just be a better fit to that motor.

[KeWLKaT]

Robert,

USUALLY a higher priced car means a better engineered engine. If you ever opened the head of a beta2 you would see that the inside has casting marks all over the place and the tolerances respected are the ones strictly made for the engine to function somehow. This means that there is a big range of tolerances withing the engine when you are looking at one thing (i.e. roundness of cylinder for instance) and this also means that the oil has a better chance of screwing up because of manufacturing defaults. Its a econobox. BMWs are more performance oriented, they are built for the roughest driving conditions, GERMAN WEATHER, and have very good engines.

Even hondas. Why do they make so much more horsepower with the same displacement? And they are even in the same price range. Don't dare to say that they are both the same thing. In engineering, price is the defining thing. They build these hyundais so they can bring you from point A to B. They didnt think about the oil passages too much. Just enough so the engine can function properly for a little while.

[Robert1955]

In engineering, price is the defining thing. They build these hyundais so they can bring you from point A to B. They didnt think about the oil passages too much. Just enough so the engine can function properly for a little while. oil has a better chance of screwing up because of manufacturing defaults.

In the early days that was very, very, true and Hyundai replace many an engine back in the day. Thats what brought about the 100,000 mile waranty as it was a way to try and recover from the dark and early days, now its just a marketing tool. The motors built today are nothing like the old ones. In fact the new Theta 4cyl is being called the world engine and will be used by Hyundai, Dodge, and Mercedes if I am not mistaken. And I realise the overall quality of a BMW and MB are higher than our cars and most others on the road. But like you said about the weather in Germany and they still have those long service intervals. I guess they still say 3,750 - 7,500 miles here in the USA is because they have no control over what rot-gut oil Elmer Fudd may be dumping into his motor. While in Europe it is mostly, if not all Synthetic. Look on the back of a Castrol Syntec oil bottle next time you are in the store. On the 0W-30 grade of oil that is made in Germany, btw its the only true full synthetic oil sold here by Castrol, CAN'T BE SOLD IN GERMANY where it is made because it does not meet their requirements over there. I guess what I am trying to say is if you are using the proper products you can go the distance. I also like your comment about the oil screwing up due to MANUFACTURING DEFECTS not the oil failing to do its job :-)

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Mercedes has nothing to do with the world engine. Chrysler, Hyundai and Mitsu went together and designed the bottom ends together. Each manufacturer is using it's own head design and intake/exhaust/timing designs. Other than the basic shortblock, the rest of the engines are completely different.

Look, I'm not going to get into yet another pissing match with "experts" on this subject. If you're spending $20 on 4 qts of oil and a filter, then you're getting ripped off. If you wan to risk destryoing your engine because you're lazy, that's your business. But I really have problem with "experts" trying to talk everyone else into doing the same when the manufacturer's recomendded intervals are much, much shorter.

[Robert1955]

Yup, MB is not directly involved in the "World Engine" You have it right Bob, I was working from memory, dangerous it is. MB did work on the VVT system and they used that in their V6 engine and it is also used by the Theta. In 2002, the three companies announced they had entered into a joint venture, called Global Engine Alliance LLC, with Hyundai taking the lead role in the design, development and engineering of the world engine family.


I am not looking at this as a "pissing" contest. And I do not and have not ever claimed to be an "EXPERT" on oils. What I have done is do alittle more reading on the subject than the average guy and have learned a few things. That plus my personal experiance with a 7,500 mile OCI over 1/2 of a million miles of driving makes me feel perfectly fine with my decision. Everyone needs to look at their own situation and decide for themselves what is best for them. And as for calling anyone on this board "Lazy" I think you are way off base because the very fact they visit a message board like this is because they care enough about their car they went out looking for information to help them make and keep it in as good a condition as they can. And lastly as for the recomended, note they did not say required, intervals being much, much, shorter my 7,500 is exactly what Hyundai RECOMENDS for my usual driving. I will post the information from my oil analysis from the sample I just sent out and we can see just what sort of wear and tear has occured as well as the condition of the oil that I removed.

[kylemorg]

^ It will be neat to see an actual analysis of the oil before and after being in the engine for that length of time. Thanks Robert!

[Robert1955]

I do have the "virgin" oil data avaliable. and I will post that up at the same time to see how the oil performed in my motor.

Actually here it is now.

Viscosity 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 9.0
Viscosity 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 49.1
Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) 165
VISC. CCS, cP (ASTM D-5293) 4069 (-35)
Flash Point, °C (°F) (COC) (ASTM D-92) 228 (442)
Fire Point, °C (°F) (COC) (ASTM D-92) 246 (475)
Pour Point, °C (°F) (ASTM D-97) -54 (-65)
NOACK (%WT Loss) (ASTM D-5800) 8.6%
Four Ball Wear, 75°C, 1200 rpm, 40 kg, 1 hr (ASTM D-4172B) 0.35
Total Base Number 12.1
High-Temperature/High-Shear Viscosity, (cP) (ASTM D-4683) 2.8

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Look, you and I fall into the "normal" category. 98% of the population, and the majority of our members here do not. What is correct for US does not make it correct for everyone else.

Just recently, we had an 07 MDX towed in. Vehicle had 15,900 miles on it. Customer never changed the oil after their first "free oil change" at 3750(ish). Engine had siezed. Customer had to buy a new engine because they chose to not change it for 9 months and drive it 12k miles.

This is NOT the first time I've seen these cases. It won't be the last one I see either. Being in this business and seeing these things day in and day out make me want to take even better care of my car to try and make up for what I see every day. The cars lasting 300+k miles I see are the people that do their suggested maintenances ontime, using quality (typically oem) parts. The ones that are dead at 120k? I bet you can guess.

[Robert1955]

Look, you and I fall into the "normal" category. 98% of the population, and the majority of our members here do not. What is correct for US does not make it correct for everyone else.

Just recently, we had an 07 MDX towed in. Vehicle had 15,900 miles on it. Customer never changed the oil after their first "free oil change" at 3750(ish). Engine had siezed. Customer had to buy a new engine because they chose to not change it for 9 months and drive it 12k miles.

You must mean normal in regards to our driving situation :D not us in general. My brother-in-law blew up a Chevy Lumina at about 20,000 miles by not changing or even checking the oil level until it blew up and then he called me and asked what to do. I told him to call his bank for a loan to pay for a new motor. You will never be able to protect people from themselves. And as to what is correct for me and you, you are correct and everyone needs to evaluate their situation and go from there.

[ricerrx7]

So, ricerrx7 I looks to me like you are calling our Hyundai’s CRAP????
Many cars/trucks/SUV’s now have OLM’s installed so it’s not a super duper high dollar car thing. And who really knows exactly how the work?

When have I ever called Hyundai's crap? This car has cost me next to nothing to own, and has never left me stranded. BUT, it by no means has the quality or engineering of a BMW, as seen by me daily.
Who know exactly how they work? People who have gone through training on them. Like me...

[BobMs_wht2k2]

GM's OLM uses time ran, engine rpm's and engine load, puts that against a pre mapped table of conditions and figures from there. One of our guys gets 3200miles between oil changes on his OLM but drives 3 miles of stop-n-go everyday. I get typically 8700miles on ours.

[Robert1955]

When have I ever called Hyundai's crap? This car has cost me next to nothing to own, and has never left me stranded. BUT, it by no means has the quality or engineering of a BMW, as seen by me daily.
Who know exactly how they work? People who have gone through training on them. Like me...

Well this statement comes to mind "So the technology that applies to 120,000 cars applies to Hyundai's? You're joking right?" Ummmm yup the cars are pretty much the same, 4 wheels and tires, a motor, a transmission,.... You get the picture. Now as to the luxury aspect and bells and whistles then no Hyundai does not match that. You may not have intended to come off that way, but when you throw up a $120,000 car as a comparison to Hyundai and ask me if I am joking :rolleyes: . And your reply about how an OLM works "Who know exactly how they work? People who have gone through training on them. Like me..." is not helpfull and actually is rather sarcastic. Bob provided an answer that was at least informative, unlike YOURS. But it also points to a consertive rules based system rather than a true analysis of the condition of the oil. And knowing that GM and all of the other companies out there that put money on the line not to mention the life of their product on the performance of the OLM you can bet they were very cautious in building the software and that after all the testing they did that they set the indicator to light up well before the oil was used up, probably at 50% - 60% of the life of the oil. Can it tell if you are using regular oil or a synthetic that in most cases has a life span double that of regular oil? In any case that is better than a generic 3,750 mile to 7,500 mile rule and I would like Hyundai to concider that in the future for us.

The bottom line is we are all passionate about our cars and I know all any of us want is the best we can do for them thats why converstions sometimes get alittle warm when someone talks about tires, filters, oil, and trans fluid and any one of the other issues that flare up from time to time.

[ricerrx7]

But it also points to a consertive rules based system rather than a true analysis of the condition of the oil.

Read my posts again. I already stated that BMW uses an oil quality sensor in their engines. Do I want to list everything that BMW takes into consideration? No. But I did mention that one point.

And if you think that Hyundai's technology even compares to BMW's, you're kidding yourself.

[Robert1955]

I was not talking about the BMW OLM since I have no idea how it works, but I am quite sure it is not a lab quality analysis but it is probably better than the GM unit which is the one I was speaking about since Bob provided some information about how it works. And I realize that a Hyundai is not the equal of a BMW. But they now hold their own vs Toyota and Honda. After all BMW has been building motors for almost 100yrs if not longer and Hyundai is/was one of the largest SHIP BUILDERS in the world. But the Hyundai's built today have little in common with their brothers that were first brought here and had such a disasterous start in the US that we still get no respect on the street and just the past few years the car related media has finally given Hyundai the respect they have had to work their tails off to earn.

[RotaMan99]

Yikes, Paranoia, facts and myths all in one page :(

[BobMs_wht2k2]

I was not talking about the BMW OLM since I have no idea how it works, but I am quite sure it is not a lab quality analysis but it is probably better than the GM unit which is the one I was speaking about since Bob provided some information about how it works. And I realize that a Hyundai is not the equal of a BMW. But they now hold their own vs Toyota and Honda. After all BMW has been building motors for almost 100yrs if not longer and Hyundai is/was one of the largest SHIP BUILDERS in the world. But the Hyundai's built today have little in common with their brothers that were first brought here and had such a disasterous start in the US that we still get no respect on the street and just the past few years the car related media has finally given Hyundai the respect they have had to work their tails off to earn.

While all of this is true of NEW Hyundais, our Beta's are rooted in the heart of bad Hyundai world. THe originalt 1.8L beta hit US shores in 1996. Hyundai's quality didn't start to really rise until around 2000/2001. So while the new Theta and Lambda are new,technologically advanced engines, the Beta is a cast iron block beast that is so finicky about oil filters that you can toast the mains/rods with the wrong filter.

[kylemorg]

if you think that Hyundai's technology even compares to BMW's, you're kidding yourself.

One thing you've got to consider is that yes, Hyundai makes a lot less $ per car that they sell. However, how many cars of each engine type does BMW sell versus the # of cars Hyundai has sold with the Beta II? I would expect that investment in design and improvement of an engine over the years usually reflects the $ of profit they make on the platforms that use a given engine. Therefore, I'd be surprised to find out that BMW invests a lot more money in the engineering and materials used in a given engine block over Honda, Toyota, and even Hyundai.

BMW does design their engines to yield better horsepower and torque per pound of weight or per liter, and probably a smoother HP and torque curve. But as far as engine lifespan, most manufacturers target 180K miles without a major failure.

It comes down to adding unnecessary value -- we discuss that here in the coatings business. Why would Del Monte want to pay extra for a coating that will protect the fruit packed in a can for 10 years when the average can is opened and the contents consumed before a year? The typical coating on the inside of any canned food is designed to protect the product (and can) for two years. There's no value for us, the can maker, the can packer, or the consumer in having a typical can that will keep fruit fresh for 10 years. (There would be exceptions to this, but I'm talking typical grocery-store consumer products, not mil-spec or other unusual uses).

The same is true for engines. Why would BMW invest millions of dollars to make their engines run for 500K miles when most of the cars are in the junkyard at under 200K miles? (If anyone wants to argue this number, go ahead, it's just a guess -- and try to find many used car listings for a BMW or any make with over 200K miles on the car!)

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Here's another little tidbit. . . . Hyundai used the Mitsu 2.0/2.4L for years. The same bottom end under the Evo. But the crank in the Hyundai was weak and prone to breakage. The Mitsu was not.

Same engine, right?

[kylemorg]

Here's a great quote about car quality from http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-10-26-consumer-reports-usat_x.htm (2005)

"Lofty sticker prices don't always mean high quality. The list of least-reliable cars includes some of Europe's most expensive nameplates, such as the Audi A8, BMW 7 series and Mercedes-Benz S-Class. For the second year in a row, no European automaker made it on the most-reliable car list. "

And in this article about 2007 models:

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/10/domestic-models-gain-major-ground-in-consumer-reports/

I see that two BMW models made the least reliable list (along with 7 Mercedes Benz -- also an UBER "German Car Company", two Volkswagen models and a Porche)... as compared to none of the Hyundais and one Kia.

So... tell me again how wonderfully designed and engineered BMW and other German cars are for reliability?

[Robert1955]

^ It will be neat to see an actual analysis of the oil before and after being in the engine for that length of time. Thanks Robert!
Here is the used oil analysis for the 8,300 mile run I made on the 0W-20 ASM Amsoil I am using in my 3.3L Sonata. This run was about 800miles longer than the 7,500miles I planed on because I did not have a chance to change it the previous weekend. According to the numbers there was still plenty of life left in it. The only number that is slightly noteworthy is the silicon at 15ppm, but as the motor is still considered to be breaking during this run from 12,163miles to 20,463miles in I am not worried. I was using the factory air filter and I did change it out, it was dirty but not nasty dirty so that’s why we feel the silicon is from the flushing out action of the first synthetic run, when I did the oil and I also double checked the air tubing to make sure no unfiltered air was getting in to the motor. The current oil will also be run the same length of time to verify the numbers before I decide to push it longer, but it is simple to do and 9,000 miles is about 3 months of driving for me that might become MY magic number. I guess the piece of mind knowing the oil can run longer with no issues is insurance for me if I miss by a few weeks, or months the oil is still doing its job.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj162/Tinabean65/1stSonataUOA_Page_1.jpg

[kylemorg]

Very interesting. So that means the detergency, lubricating properties, viscosity, etc. are all still OK after 8.3K miles based on your driving patterns. That's good to hear!

[BobMs_wht2k2]

What exactly is your driving pattern?

[Robert1955]

I drive 120miles a day round trip to work. I use 3 different "55mph Highways" and deal with the normal rush hour traffic which would be about 40% heavy traffic, the inrush to Washington DC, and 60% normal to light after I get out of the Washington D.C. inbound traffic. I can normally average 44-47mph over a 3 day, 380mile cycle. There are also 21 traffic lights to deal with each way. If you want to "google" map it start in zipcode 21061 and go to 20657 in Maryland.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

so you fall into the "normal" category like a few others of us.

[Robert1955]

There Bob goes again, calling people names. I will have a sample of the 5W-30 ASL I have in the wife's 05 Grand Caravan tested. She meets the severe duty requirements in more ways than I can count. Short 1 mile commutes on a daily basis, Start up and 30seconds later she is doing 40 mph on the uber short commute to work. After 4,000 miles I will change out the oil and we will see how it holds up. I don't think anyone else here is more abusive to a car than she is, and if you are, please sell it and start taking the bus, your (ex)car will love you forever :D

[2003GT]

I live in New England an I guess we are classified as Severe. I do a lot of town driving maybe never see over 50mph. Unless I go somewhere. I use FRAM filters with Quaker State oil. We usually do 5000 with the other two cars but I am unsure what to do this one at. Four cylinders are new to me esp high revving ones. Thanks BOB

[RotaMan99]

I do 45-50mph driving about 80% of my to and from work journey. the rest is in stop and go traffic. 45 minutes one way to work. 25 minutes on the highway to my gf house after work, 1 hour back to my house at the end of the day.

I already passed the 3000 mile mark for my conventional oil. I need to order some oil sometime soon.

FRAM filters are the worst on the market.

[2003GT]

So 3000 sounds about right. Why do you hate Fram I use them all the time. BOB

[WytchDctr]

Hyundia has a TSB that says don't use them. Id say that wins that argument. Also they are made of crap material. That is why they are so cheap.

[Cypher]

I won't even put a fram filter on a customers car unless they absolutely won't have anything else put on.

[ricerrx7]

Here's a great quote about car quality from http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-10-26-consumer-reports-usat_x.htm (2005)

"Lofty sticker prices don't always mean high quality. The list of least-reliable cars includes some of Europe's most expensive nameplates, such as the Audi A8, BMW 7 series and Mercedes-Benz S-Class. For the second year in a row, no European automaker made it on the most-reliable car list. "

And in this article about 2007 models:

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/10/domestic-models-gain-major-ground-in-consumer-reports/

I see that two BMW models made the least reliable list (along with 7 Mercedes Benz -- also an UBER "German Car Company", two Volkswagen models and a Porche)... as compared to none of the Hyundais and one Kia.

So... tell me again how wonderfully designed and engineered BMW and other German cars are for reliability?
Define reliability. All that study takes into consideration (from what I could tell) is whether or not the owner had to take the car back to the dealership to address a problem. Now, let's look at why BMW 7 series is at the bottom of the list. There's over 50 computers in the car, almost all of it is top of the line technology that has never been used before. Fiberoptic connections, and such. Do you really expect new experimental technology to function properly 100% of the time? If the other cars had the amount of technology that BMW's had, they would be in the shop at least as often, if not more. But since this topic is concerning oil, and that's what my original intent was, let's discuss that. We see very few engine related problems. I believe there was only one oil related problem with the M3's back in the day, but that was rectified with a recall.

[cclngthr]

Hyundia has a TSB that says don't use them. Id say that wins that argument. Also they are made of crap material. That is why they are so cheap.

Yep. It says to use only OEM filters. The problem is that aftermarket filters reduce the oil pressure. I did a test on Fram, OEM and Wix filters. Fram reduced the oil pressure by 5 psi where OEM and Wix reduced it by less than 2. Additionally, OEM and Wix filters have a check valve that prevents oil from draining from the engine components, especially the head. This creates a dry start every time you crank the motor. With no oil up in the head, bearing life is dramatically reduced.

Fram also removed Hyundai from its listing for this reason because with the drop in oil pressure, not enough oil was being pushed through the motor, which destroys it. With Fram like filters on the Beta engine, you do hear a lot of top end noises. The TSB tells the dealer to change the oil with the OEM filter to fix it.

I won't even put a fram filter on a customers car unless they absolutely won't have anything else put on.

I wouldn't even do that.

[RotaMan99]

i'll try to find all the huge amount of information about FRAM filters. They are the worst filter you can by. I believe their check valve or bypass valve...something is made out of cardboard instead of rubber. That is one of the main issue. I have to find the links again.

After reading what I read. I will never come within 100 miles of a FRAM filter.

[jalmir]

it's been posted on the board somewhere!

here are the links :

http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/reference.html

http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/opinions.html

in the end it's says : don't touch Fram, Penzoil and Quaker State (Penzoil and Quaker State are in fact Fram filters)

[Cypher]

If I don't use OEM, the only filter I touch is a WIX

[2003GT]

Well we use Fram Religiously and it works. I have a Super Tech Walmart brand filter on there now. Ok Lets here what you have to say about this. Also I use Quaker State oil and have heard some things. What to you guys think. I was going to run full Synthetic but a neighbor said that once the engine has conventional in it your not supposed to mix synthetic in it. Any Ideas. BOB

[Cypher]

Your neighbor is wrong. You can switch to synthetic.

[cclngthr]

Well we use Fram Religiously and it works. I have a Super Tech Walmart brand filter on there now. Ok Lets here what you have to say about this. Also I use Quaker State oil and have heard some things. What to you guys think. I was going to run full Synthetic but a neighbor said that once the engine has conventional in it your not supposed to mix synthetic in it. Any Ideas. BOB

Fram filter:

I did a test on Wix, Fram and OEM to find if the filters had any drop in pressure or flow restrictions. Fram filters drop the flow by 5 psi, which lowers it enough to restrict oil pressure where it needs to be. Since the oil passages are small in the engine, the designers use a lower pressure oil pump. The passages in the motor do increase the pressure enough so the oiling is sufficient. When you restrict the pressure at the filter/pump, you will have a greater loss at the bearings and at the head.

I know this for a fact. I just assembled my spare beta 2 with forged parts and saw the oil passages. The pump may put out 20-25 psi at the pump, but at the bearings it is higher.

[ricerrx7]

^That post is so incredibly wrong, that I don't even know where to begin...

[KeWLKaT]

Why is that so ricer? I'd be curious to know what you have to say. Unless you have any helpful information, don't just post to say you're posting.

[ricerrx7]

Oil pumps are measured in volume/flow, not pressure. The amount of pressure is determined by the size of the outlets (I.E. rod bearing clearances).
Low pressure at the pump, but gets higher at the bearings? How in the world would the pressure increase? The pressure would be basically the same throughout the system, unless it went through a restriction, in which case it would decrease, not increase...

[jalmir]

Well we use Fram Religiously and it works.

Read the links I gave, Fram filters might work but they sure are not the best filter to use!

In the end, for the price difference you should use OEM oil filters. Around here Fram filters start around 5.50$ and an OEM one is around 6$ ... less if you know a part guy ;)

The oil filter quality was talked about a few times and the conclusions are always the same : don't use Fram 'cause they are BS!


http://www.elantraxd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10598
http://www.elantraxd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7524

[2003GT]

Ok I guess its 3000 and Hyundai filters form now on. Can I still use conventional. BOB