The new Mid-$20K RWD battle

[hyunelan2]

The new mid-$20K RWD battle is going to be good. I'm going to get some popcorn and watch this one play out.

There's always the Mustang faithful (redesign due 2009 (http://www.autobytel.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_id_int/2385)), Vs. the Genesis Coupe, vs. the 6.0-Liter Import Beater (G8 GT). The Genesis Coupe is the only one with a Turbo-4/V6, rather than a V6/V8 - which should help it in the low-trim fuel economy competition. The G8 and new Mustang should both have the cylinder deactivation on the V8s, or at least the G8 does.

Can the Genesis Coupe keep up? The Sedan is out of this competition, because it'll be +$30K. Challenger and Camaro are also going to be priced too high to be in the $20Ks competition.

What's everyone think? Ready... Fight!

Oh, I forgot the Dodge Charger. It starts at $19,938, and can climb into the low-$30Ks, so it can compete here.

[NY2002ElantraGT]

well let me tell you who wins.........

Mustang will sell alot cuz...... its a mustang, and every guy with slicked back hair and a wife beater is wanting to put his red/white/green flag on the back of it!

Hyundai will be a better vehicle but probably wont sell as much, and if they do, it will be to the retired generation that want a cheap reliable "sports car"

Pontiac, dont even get me started.......... all they do is throw different motors in the same car. i think pontiac has the worst exterior designs out of every car company. up into a few years ago it was saturn, but they have now passed Pontiac! haha

[hyunelan2]

I agree about the Mustang.

The Genesis Sedan has a ton of hype. It is possible some of that carries over to the Coupe as it seems it will come with the Genesis name.

The G8, I don't think should be dismissed so easily. It's the first release of the new 'Camaro platform' developed in Australia by Holden. Although the dropped they ball bad in the American market with the GTO, this car has a much better design. It's packing the 6.0L, 361hp version of the Corvette's LS3 engine. (Note the G8 GXP that just debuted in New York has a 6.2L, 402hp engine, but will almost certainly be priced too high to talk about here). Although since it's replacing the Grand Prix, I see many more being sold with the 3.6L ,256hp V6. I think they will also sell a ton.



EDIT:
I should add that the Charger is already all over the place. There is nothing about it that makes me want to own one though.

[NovaResource]

I highly doubt the G8 will compete with the Genesis Coupe or the Mustang. You just aren't going to see people shopping a 4-door sedan against 2-door coupes.

[Qyn]

The G8 is a monster, the Genesis and, to a degree, the Mustangs are much nimbler vehicles.

[Munky]

People will buy the Mustang/Charger because of the name alone. That's always going to happen.

As for Pontiac, there's a lot of people that won't buy them because of their name. Hyundai is in the same boat.

You can try and try to appeal to the masses, but they always go by what they hear/know about previous models before going with something new.

Honestly, I think the genesis coupe will be a big hit. It may take a while to get out there and get a good name, but it's got the potential.

[hyunelan2]

I agree you see Genesis/Mustang matched up and Charger/G8 as direct competitors (by number of doors).

What they all have in common though, is RWD - something that was missing from the mass market even 2 years ago. You wanted RWD at $20Ks, you bought a Mustang - end of story. Now there are options.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

I highly doubt the G8 will compete with the Genesis Coupe or the Mustang. You just aren't going to see people shopping a 4-door sedan against 2-door coupes.

That would be me. G8 V6 or the 2.0L Turbo Genesis are the two cars on my list.

[NovaResource]

Yes, the G8 is probably going to compete more with the Charger, 300C and BMWs. Will the Genesis Coupe be in there against the Mustang, Camaro and Challenger? I don't know. Just because it's RWD I don't think will be enough to steal away sales of the V8 versions. I think most of the Genesis Coupe competition will be the Nissan Z and Infinity G coupe. However, the Genesis Coupe may steal aways some V6 Mustang/Charger/Camaro sales based on the price.

What they all have in common though, is RWD - something that was missing from the mass market even 2 years ago. You wanted RWD at $20Ks, you bought a Mustang - end of story. Now there are options.
Ahem ... Solstice/Sky ... (cough) ... Miata MX5 ... (choke) ... RX8 ... (cough) ... 350Z ...

[mtlelantra]

Mustang and G8 most likely have more engine mod options.

[NovaResource]

I highly doubt the G8 will compete with the Genesis Coupe or the Mustang. You just aren't going to see people shopping a 4-door sedan against 2-door coupes.

That would be me. G8 V6 or the 2.0L Turbo Genesis are the two cars on my list.
Correction:
I highly doubt the G8 will compete with the Genesis Coupe or the Mustang. You just aren't going to see MANY people shopping a 4-door sedan against 2-door coupes.

We all know you are the odd-ball Bob when it comes to car choices. ;)

[BobMs_wht2k2]

SWEET! I'm officially an odd-ball! THat's the best thing I've been called today, literally.

[Silentwolf]

Realistically
It will be Soltice/Sky vs Turbo4 Genesis
and V6 Stang vs V6 Genesis (problem there is the V6 stang is cheaper the V8 is more powerful than the Genesis)

[hyunelan2]

Personally, I'd also shop the G8 against the others based on performance numbers and dollar-signs, not body style.

Not to drag this off topic too far, but my #1 choice would be a Genesis Sedan. Since it's starting at +$30K, the Coupe is a better fit for dollar-signs. The Coupe, however, doesn't fit well with 2-doors & practicality (eliminate Mustang). Charger sucksmybutt. Insert G8 by process of elimination (and it's sweet - sit in one if you get a chance).

For some other things mentioned here, Challenger is currently only sold as SRT8 in the first year: $37,995 starting price (ouch). I don't see it selling like a daily driver, but more to a niche market of old-guys who have an extra spot in the garage. Camaro, I don't remember the exact numbers, but he V8s will be in the upper $30Ks as well. Both are too pricey to be in the same picture as the main 4 cars I mentioned in the OP.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Only problem with the Solstice/Sky competing against the Genesis coupe is the lack of interior space and seats in the S/S. Even though the Genesis rear seat will be about as useless as a Porche's, it's still going to have one.

C&D really liked the V8 G8. I'd be happy with the 263hp V6.

[hyunelan2]

Yes, 2 seat roadsters need not apply to this challenge. (although by the title, they could - they're just too different)

[NovaResource]

Only problem with the Solstice/Sky competing against the Genesis coupe is the lack of interior space and seats in the S/S. Even though the Genesis rear seat will be about as useless as a Porche's, it's still going to have one.

C&D really liked the V8 G8. I'd be happy with the 263hp V6.

I agree about the backseat problem. That's why I just don't see the Genesis Coupe competing against cars like the Solstice/Sky, the Miata or the S2000. I see it competing more with the G35 and to a lesser extent the 350Z (also without a back seat but it does have lots of space behind the driver).

I just don't see many V8 Camaro/Mustang/Challenger buyers going with the Genesis coupe. Yes, V6 Camaro/Mustang/Challenger buyers might check out the Genesis but in my opinion the performance guys are going to want the V8.

And I agree about the G8 going to be a good car. My father is thinking about buying a V6 G8 when it comes out.

Yes, 2 seat roadsters need not apply to this challenge. (although by the title, they could - they're just too different)

(Cough) ..... RX8

You didn't say 2-seat, you just said RWD and $20Ks:

What they all have in common though, is RWD - something that was missing from the mass market even 2 years ago. You wanted RWD at $20Ks, you bought a Mustang - end of story. Now there are options.

And, if 2-seat roadsters are "just too different" how is a 4-door sedan (Pontiac G8) similar?

[Qyn]

Only problem with the Solstice/Sky competing against the Genesis coupe is the lack of interior space and seats in the S/S. Even though the Genesis rear seat will be about as useless as a Porche's, it's still going to have one.

C&D really liked the V8 G8. I'd be happy with the 263hp V6.

Agreed. ANYTHING's more powerful than what we've got.

[hyunelan2]

Nova- The RX8 isn't a 2-seat roadster, it's a 2x2. Good call on bringing that car to the discussion, it should be here.

A 2 door coupe with a back seat and 4 door sedan with a back seat are much more similar than any of these cars vs. a car with only 2 seats and no rear passenger area. The G8 is basically the 4-door version of the upcoming Camaro (same engine choices, drive train, chassis, etc). I would think that the Camaro Vs. the other cars is an obvious fit (were it not for price), so why wouldn't the same car with 4 doors.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Comparing 200+hp RWD cars to an Elantra is like compairing a grape to a watermelon. Sure, they're both fruits with the same basic shape, but that's about all they have in common.

I think the issue(s) I have with the RX8 are it's inherent lack of power where it needs to be. Sure, it'll make 200hp at 9000 rpms, but that 150 tq kills that car. then there's the whole oil consumption issue I have with them.

[hyunelan2]

But other than your aforementioned dislikes of the RX8, it is a RWD car, with a back seat, and priced in the mid $20Ks. So, other than it getting stomped-on by the big engine cars, it's a fit here.


EDIT: It's nice to have a car-based discussion on here again, it's been a while

[BobMs_wht2k2]

so, what is the official line on the price for the Genesis coupe? The G8 V6 comes with the 6-spd auto and a ton of features for $24k.

[hyunelan2]

I don't think we have an officially released price on the Coupe yet. I think the numbers we ballparked from a while ago were starting about $20K for the 4cyl and $24K for the v6. Starting.

G8 is a huge value for what you are getting out of it. I think Pontiac took a page from Hyundai when they setup pricing. It's also being markedted as "the most powerful car under $30K" for the GT.

[NovaResource]

Nova- The RX8 isn't a 2-seat roadster, it's a 2x2. Good call on bringing that car to the discussion, it should be here.

A 2 door coupe with a back seat and 4 door sedan with a back seat are much more similar than any of these cars vs. a car with only 2 seats and no rear passenger area. The G8 is basically the 4-door version of the upcoming Camaro (same engine choices, drive train, chassis, etc). I would think that the Camaro Vs. the other cars is an obvious fit (were it not for price), so why wouldn't the same car with 4 doors.

So let me get this straight, the amount of seats is important but the amount of door is not. Yeah, that's logical.

[hyunelan2]

So let me get this straight, the amount of seats is important but the amount of door is not. Yeah, that's logical.

How is it not? If you need to carry around 4 people, the amount of doors is nowhere near as important as the amount of seats.

[NovaResource]

How is it not? If you need to carry around 4 people, the amount of doors is nowhere near as important as the amount of seats.

People looking for a RWD platform are USUALLY more interested in performance than they are in carrying passengers. 4-door cars tend to be larger and heavier. Just the opposite of what you want in a performance car.

[Silentwolf]

Ya but sometimes the folks want a nice performance car with the option of putting kids or such in the back seat.

[NovaResource]

Ya but sometimes the folks want a nice performance car with the option of putting kids or such in the back seat.

But that's my point. Those people are the ones who are going to usually overlook the cramped Camaro/Mustang/Challenger/Genesis coupe for something with more room like the Charger, 300C, Magnum (RIP) and G8.

[hyunelan2]

I can agree with that. But, I don't see the G8 as being significantly larger or heavier than a Mustang, when balanced with engine power. (of course this doesn't take into effect handling, cornering, etc).

The G8 GT weighs in at 3,995 lbs / 361hp (11.07 lbs/hp). Mustang GT (current production) is 3,483 lbs / 300hp (11.61 lbs/hp). In a straight line, the G8 has the advantage, even with 4 doors.



If we were talking pure sports cars, I don't think the Charger or G8 would be discussed, but more of the Roadster types.



I guess we should add the Ford Crown Vic. and Mercury Grand Marquis to the list too? Have they sold more than 10 of those to anyone other than cops/taxis and 85 year olds in the last 5 years?

[NovaResource]

I guess we should add the Ford Crown Vic. and Mercury Grand Marquis to the list too? Have they sold more than 10 of those to anyone other than cops/taxis and 85 year olds in the last 5 years?

Yeah but the last "performance" car on that platform was the Maurder and that wasn't much of a performer.

[Qyn]

I can agree with that. But, I don't see the G8 as being significantly larger or heavier than a Mustang, when balanced with engine power. (of course this doesn't take into effect handling, cornering, etc).

The G8 GT weighs in at 3,995 lbs / 361hp (11.07 lbs/hp). Mustang GT (current production) is 3,483 lbs / 300hp (11.61 lbs/hp). In a straight line, the G8 has the advantage, even with 4 doors.



If we were talking pure sports cars, I don't think the Charger or G8 would be discussed, but more of the Roadster types.



I guess we should add the Ford Crown Vic. and Mercury Grand Marquis to the list too? Have they sold more than 10 of those to anyone other than cops/taxis and 85 year olds in the last 5 years?

LOL... but seriously, how much of a difference is there in the wheelbase/overall lenght between the G8 and Stang? In my limited opinion The smaller the car, regardless of weight, the smaller the footprint the more nimble the car, within reason.

[hyunelan2]

G8: (in inches)
Wheelbase 114.8
Length 196.10
Width 74.8
Height 57.70
Track Front 62.7
Track Rear 63.3

Mustang:
Wheelbase 107.10
Length 187.6
Width 74.0
Height 54.4
Track Front 62.3
Track Rear 62.5

So, the width is similar, but the G8 is 8.4" longer. That number seemed big, so I looked at an engineering scale on my desk. 8.4" is not so big (about the distance from the left-side of you left shift key, to the left side of the "?" key on your standard keyboard).

[Silentwolf]

Crown Vic line would need some serious modifications to suspension and performance.

[hyunelan2]

Something like a "pursuit" or "interceptor" package? haha.

[Qyn]

Yeah, in that light it does look like I was wrong previously. It just seems to me that the Stang is appreciably smaller. I guess my eyes decieve me yet again! Are there dimensions/weight distro's for the Genesis Coupe/Sedan yet? Also, 500lbs is a fair difference in terms of handling. BTW I <3 the RX8, love rotary! Only problem seems to be reliability. **** Ford.

[hyunelan2]

Yeah, you'd have to do a whole lot of something to overcome +500lbs in a corner. Then again, vs. the Mustang's solid rear axel, it's never been a particularly nimble creature either.

I'm not sure if weights are out on the Genesis yet. The Sedan concept had a weight on it, but I don't know about anything more.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Something like a "pursuit" or "interceptor" package? haha.

GM made decicated police cars, with real suspensions, brakes and drivetrains. Ford sticks on a badge.

I know GM had originally planned on replacing all the W-body cars with the new RWD platforms. Meaning a new Monte Carlo, Impala, Buick and the Camaro to joing the G8.

[hyunelan2]

Yeah, I think there is a thread around here somewhere about the "Zeta" platform and all the different possibilities that could come out of it. The Buick (of all things) acutally looked pretty-good, IIRC.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

I'm waiting for a new 9C1 Caprice. . . I miss GM Police cars. They were the absolute shiznit!

[Qyn]

I'll be partial to a Genesis Coupe if they don't Tibburize it. By that, I mean promise the Sky and deliver a Skoda.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

I'm looking forward to all the new test drives coming up this year. The Genesis, Coupe, G8, SX4 Sport (still haven't driven one yet!). Ought to be a fun summer!

[SuperGLS]

Info on the Genesis Coupe. Does this help the debate?

Turbo 4:

Available with 6 speed manual or 5 speed automatic
212 @ 6,000 rpm (estimated)
217 lb-ft @ 2,500 rpm (estimated)
137 mph, fuel cut (estimated)
3,439 lbs.

V6:

Available with 6 speed manual or 6 speed automatic
306 @ 6,000 rpm (estimated)
263 @ 4,700 rpm (estimated)
149 mph, fuel cut (estimated)
3,549 lbs.

[2001GLS]

This should be an interesting coupe. I like it better than the Tiburon and it seems to give good value in Hyundai tradition. The powertrain choices are much better too. I would say with gas prices being high they will sell lots of the 4 cylinder models.

[Qyn]

Hey Super (or anyone else)! Know if that Genesis Coupe has Shiftronic (or similar) on the Auto tranny? 4 cyl and 6.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

What about the new Solstice coupe? http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/autoshows/newyork/2008/2009pontiacsolsticecoupe.html#09pontiacsolsticeroo f
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/autoshows/newyork/2008/2009pontiacsolsticecoupe.09pontiacsolsticef34.img. jpg
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/autoshows/newyork/2008/2009pontiacsolsticecoupe.09pontiacsolsticeroof2.im g.jpg
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/autoshows/newyork/2008/2009pontiacsolsticecoupe.09pontiacsolsticehatch.im g.jpg

[Fox]

Hey Super (or anyone else)! Know if that Genesis Coupe has Shiftronic (or similar) on the Auto tranny? 4 cyl and 6.

quoted from SuperGLS
TRANSMISSIONS

Both engines are mated to a standard six-speed manual transmission. The Genesis Coupe 2.0t offers an optional five-speed automatic with SHIFTRONIC® while the 3.8-liter V6 offers a ZF six-speed automatic transmission with SHIFTRONIC to handle the additional torque.

[Qyn]

Kick ***!!! Thanks.

[djarsonist]

Mustang will sell alot cuz...... its a mustang, and every guy with slicked back hair and a wife beater is wanting to put his red/white/green flag on the back of it!


LMAO
Best and truest quote Iv'e seen in a while...

[ilanpro]

I cannot wait untill the Genesis is drifting

[Qyn]

^+12!

[Vampyrate]

clearly i win this battle just because i said so