Long OCI's

[Robert1955]

Ok, the last thread bounced all around so I started this one to concentrate on the specific topic of long Oil Change Intervals. What makes them so bad? Why is it every time the subject is brought up some people just freak out? While I would not try to run a regular oil for 10,000, but there are some very good "dino" oils on the market now because of the API SM Classification requirements, miles my experience of using Mobil 1, Castrol Syntec, and now Amsoil for over 500,000 miles and a 7,500 mile OCI with zero oil related problems I have no problems believing 10,000 miles or longer is reasonable as long as you are using an oil built for that type of service. You would also need to be using the proper filtration to keep the oil clean. What do you think makes an oil unfit for continued use? Why do you think that an oil can not be built with the proper specs and with the filtration required to protect the internals of an engine for 10,000 miles or more?

As I noted in the other thread I will post the results of my last oil run that went a little longer than 7,500 using Amsoil ASM0W-20 oil and a WIX OEM type filter so we can see just how much life was left, or not left in the oil. This information will not apply to everyone who uses the same oil/filter combo unless their driving situation is similar to mine, BUT if the oil test comes back and says that there is over 1/2 the life left in the oil based off of the analysis then doubling the 7,500 gives me a 15,000 mile OCI as a possible interval :D as long as I can provide adequate filtration for the oil. Then since my normal driving style lets me double the recomended mileage then increasing the severe interval to 7,500, or at least going to 6,000 would follow the same logic.

[2loud2k2xd]

dude, 1st of all HYUNDAI CALLS for oil change intervals every 3500 miles or so. NO MATTER WHAT!!! to keep your warranty. if you choose not to abide by hyundai manufactures reccomended OCI, then your warranty is void.

now that i have no more warranty (im over 100k), i use a full synthetic ams oil and will change it every 10,000 miles. i use an ams oil filter with this as well. now ever since 40k ive used a full synthetic oil in my xd, either mobile1 or castrol syntec and changed it every 3000-3500 miles. i got the oil free from my work. so my warranty was always covered.


and the reason why everyone gets all bent over oil change and oil threads is cause there are millions of threads about the same subject. its like beating a dead horse.

[silet]

2loud2k2xd is correct. This discussion has proven over and over again to be a waste of time.

[soullesselantra]

and actually, if you look in your owners manual, it says either 7500 for light driving and mostly highway, and 3000 for more severe use....at least that is whats in my 05's

[BobMs_wht2k2]

My 02 is no different. Yes, some of us do get to fall into the "normal" category because of our specific drive pattern. BUT, we are by far teh minority in this. THe majority of people will fall into the severe category. Argue it all you want, whine, cry, complain, call names . . .whatever. It's not going to change the facts.

[jobzombi]

Just one question, I heard once from a mechanic that going from standard oil to synthetic is good, but going the opposite is bad, something about the oil mixture not being any good. Is this true? I did notice that I always use synthetic and once I could not get the bolt off my pan so I took it to a shop to get it done and the car was more sluggish, I assume they used regular oil. When I went back to my mobil 1 full synthetic, it was good again. I remember I checked everything to, the oil level to make sure that they didn't overfill it.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

It's the placebo effect. ANd yes, you can switch back and forth with no ill effects. Been there, done that. Cars are still on the road.

[2001VE]

All cars have some blow by that tranfers volitiles into the engine oil. High detergent (read synthetic) oils can with stand more of this normal contamination and its well docuemented. Some contaminants like ferrous metal shavings also need to be trapped so a magnetic oil drain plug should also be added for exteneded changes. It makes environmental and financial sense to conserve the oil ; but anyone who has seen the damage of cheap or unchanged oil , automatically wants to error on the side of caution. As Bob pointed out few of us drive under the optimal conditions required.

[Robert1955]

2loud2k2xd, You TOTALY missed the point of this thread. I am not talking about ANY manufacturers RECOMMENDED OCI’s; I am talking about the life expectancy of a modern day synthetic oil and the technical reasons people feel that anything past the severe driving mileage as shown in the owners manual will void your warranty and destroy your motor. What do you think happens to your oil over time that makes it unfit for continued use? And why do you think the oil can not be manufactured in such a way to effectively negate those things for a longer period of time that would allow a longer OCI? If you want to stick your head into the sand, wave your arms about, and mindlessly point to your owner’s manual as gospel please do not post in this thread as I am looking for some real discussion here about this. Also don’t even think about using a different size tire, swapping out for that big brake system, putting the Tibby struts on; in fact don’t change anything from what Hyundai put on at the factory because you all know that they only installed the best possible components on our cars.

Anyway getting back to the real reason for this post it has been shown by the manufactures that have begun to install OLM’s in their vehicles you should be able to see that even they are saying that a set mileage interval is not the only way, or even the best to determine when its time to change the oil. It looks like GM has done extensive testing and by a combination of running time, engine RPM’s, and load factors experienced, plus the many other items they use to determine the oil has hit a point that GM deems it is time, with a healthy safety margin to change the oil, while still doing its job needs to be replaced.

Silet – You can choose to believe anything you want. There has not been anything PROVEN in these discussions here as to weather or not an extended OCI, under the proper conditions, is harmful to an engine. And it’s only a waste of time if you can’t keep an open mind to discuss a subject in a reasonable manner.

Bob – I have never argued, whined, cried, complained, or called anyone names and as a matter I am trying to find the facts not change them.

I can’t get past the fact that every time a discussion like this comes along it seems to be assumed I am trying to convince someone to buy or use something. I have never pushed a product here at anyone, in fact back during the ATF discussion there was enough information presented from both sides as to the pro’s/con’s of using Amsoil’s ATF or anything but Hyundai/KIA/ or Mitsu SPIII trans fluid that I stated I would not recommend its use in our cars until there was definitive proof it was acceptable for us to use. I am not pushing an agenda here to sell anything to anybody, in fact any one from this site that wants to buy Amsoil from me will not have to pay retail price if they order it thru me as I can sell for any price above my cost, of course, up to and above retail if I wanted to try. You want a price on anything send me a PM, I look at this as a hobby and am willing to help save any of us money where possible.

[Cypher]

I really don't care what all these OLM systems say or how long an oil "can" last. I use full synthetic Mobil1 and the longest I have gone without changing it is 5000 miles.

I typically drive all highway with a 30 mile communte to work, then I drive 35miles from work to the gym then drive back to where I live for a 5mile drive. I always let the car warm up for 5-10 minutes. I believe that makes me fall into the "normal" driving and I still typically change my oil at 3000-3500 miles. I'm at 127k miles on my car and at every oil change my oil level is exactly where I left it.

I know thats not really helpful in this conversation but to me, its just not one of those things that I trust pushing far. Like Bob has said, I've seen the results when people push things too far and what can go wrong.

[jalmir]

I've also seen long OCI go wrong, in the end I prefer paying the difference and be on the safe side. 5000-5500km (3000-3400miles) oil change are perfect for me and the car. I got the oil filter in 10 pack at the dealer (50$) and use dino oil @ 15$ a quart.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Bob – I have never argued, whined, cried, complained, or called anyone names and as a matter I am trying to find the facts not change them.

I never said you did. But unfortunately, our younger members who are unexperienced in life or cars will read one line and one line only. . . "You can go 7500 miles before an oil change" and miss all the other information that goes with it. THat's why I try to put out as much info as possible in the hopes that we saved just on person from doing something stupid and costly.

Being in the business, I've seen my share of "Well I read it on the internet and thought I could do it" as the car is being towed in on a wrecker with 16 bent valves. . .

[kylemorg]

You asked "what makes longer than normal oil change intervals so bad?" The answer to your question is "the increased potential for engine damage from motor oil protective property failure due to thermal breakdown and contamination."

I do see on https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/sso.aspx that Amsoil recommends 17,500 service intervals on their top-of-the-line oil, which would be the max I and a lot of other people could do due to my driving patterns. Their other oils have more frequent service interval recommendations.

I think it's obvious that the oil doesn't have a clock that says "Hey, I've been in the engine xxx miles now, time to fail!". Different people are harder / easier on their car's engine, live in different environments and have different driving patterns. Therefore the oil will last longer for some than others.

I could see how you could potentially get more than 7.5K out of any oil if you check the properties at frequent intervals. I'm not talking about just checking the oil level and appearance -- I'm talking about running some of the ASTM tests on it periodically, and changing it when it needs it.

Depending on what is failing on the oil (viscosity, lubricity or detergency, contamination) it might be possible to add more detergents to the crankcase rather than drain and refill the oil.

Bottom line, though... without controlled scientific testing, this discussion will have no meaningful "conclusion"...

[Robert1955]

Depending on what is failing on the oil (viscosity, lubricity or detergency, contamination) it might be possible to add more detergents to the crankcase rather than drain and refill the oil.

Bottom line, though... without controlled scientific testing, this discussion will have no meaningful "conclusion"...
Thats my point, Amsoil and Mobil 1 both sell synthetic oils that they say are good for 15,000 miles and more. They have done the testing and created the formulations that enable those oils to perform for those intervals. And Amsoil, Mobil 1 also, understands the difference between normal and severe use and reduces the mileage by 50% for a severe usage situation. I have sent out a sample of the oil I just removed after approx. 8,000 miles of use to see just how well it was working in my motor and will post the results here next week after I get it back. The 17,500 interval for the SSO is for severe usage and 35,000 for normal.

There is no way to protect a fool from blowing up their car because they never lifted the hood.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

What's the saying. . . No point in making something idiot-proof because there will always be a better idiot!

[cclngthr]

My 02 is no different. Yes, some of us do get to fall into the "normal" category because of our specific drive pattern. BUT, we are by far teh minority in this. THe majority of people will fall into the severe category. Argue it all you want, whine, cry, complain, call names . . .whatever. It's not going to change the facts.

I was talking to my service advisor yesterday when I had my car in for the peeling radio face and he said that most people do not drive normal, which they do not go by the severe schedule and end up siezing their engine because it was clogged with sludge. I think you mentioned this a couple of times recently (or was it HYTECH?).

2loud2k2xd, You TOTALY missed the point of this thread. I am not talking about ANY manufacturers RECOMMENDED OCI’s; I am talking about the life expectancy of a modern day synthetic oil and the technical reasons people feel that anything past the severe driving mileage as shown in the owners manual will void your warranty and destroy your motor. What do you think happens to your oil over time that makes it unfit for continued use? And why do you think the oil can not be manufactured in such a way to effectively negate those things for a longer period of time that would allow a longer OCI?

You are not realizing that oil, even synthetic oil can sludge up easy on certain cars. An oil manufacturer may claim that oil will last a certain period, but they don't take into consideration that there are more variables in the real world than they want to admit to. HYTECH did mention that he has seen cars with engines with a ****load of sludge because the oil was not changed regularly.

Even on my car, the last time I changed oil, I had some sludge in the oil pan, which came out in the oil. If I see sludge with 4,000 mile old oil, there has to be a lot more buildup with oil that is 3 times the mileage. On my car, I exchanged 2 quarts of oil with trans fluid to clean out the engine and ran the car for 500 miles then changed the oil again, which the sludge buildup was cleaned out.

Thats my point, Amsoil and Mobil 1 both sell synthetic oils that they say are good for 15,000 miles and more. They have done the testing and created the formulations that enable those oils to perform for those intervals. And Amsoil, Mobil 1 also, understands the difference between normal and severe use and reduces the mileage by 50% for a severe usage situation. I have sent out a sample of the oil I just removed after approx. 8,000 miles of use to see just how well it was working in my motor and will post the results here next week after I get it back. The 17,500 interval for the SSO is for severe usage and 35,000 for normal.

There is no way to protect a fool from blowing up their car because they never lifted the hood.

It doesn't matter. Oil can sludge up quicker than you think depending on your driving.

[Robert1955]

It doesn't matter. Oil can sludge up quicker than you think depending on your driving.

That is why you check your oil level every time you get gas :D. If it is starting to sludge up you should notice it. And if it is doing that you have a problem that needs to be fixed. You can not just add a wonder oil and ignore normal checks, I check my oil level each fill up so that means every 3 week days I pop the hood and check. During my previous run of about 8,000miles I did not need to add any oil and when it drained out I was pleased with the dark honey color. I figured it would be a litter darker on that first change as I had Castrol GTX in there so there was some flushing action to get all the dino out. If my testing results come back looking good I will change it out again at the same mileage to see if the color is lighter as there is no dino remains to darken it up.

[silet]

Silet – You can choose to believe anything you want. There has not been anything PROVEN in these discussions here as to weather or not an extended OCI, under the proper conditions, is harmful to an engine. And it’s only a waste of time if you can’t keep an open mind to discuss a subject in a reasonable manner.


I think you missed the point made by 2loud2k2xd and re-iterated by Bob and others. Hyundai WILL void the warranty if the see anything that doesn't fall with in their specs.

I have gone to 10 K miles oil changes on my 03 GT, but only after the warranty was over, and I change the oil on my 90 Mazda pickup once a year.

You know what you're doing, I know what I'm doing, but most people don't. So If they read this, and are uninformed to begin with, they will manage to screw up. I have no argument on the oil lasting much longer. I do know that it's not for everyone and I know that these discussions about it end up nowhere.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

^ That was something I noticed was the varnish build up on the dipstick and oil cap on BOTH cars (one had 65k miles of dino oil changes, the other 143k) lost that varnish after I ran Mobil1 in them. The cleansing power of the Mobil1 was amazing. I did change the filters on both cars at 3k and topped off the 1/2 qt of fluid lost. It's like an "easy engine flush".



You know what you're doing, I know what I'm doing, but most people don't. So If they read this, and are uninformed to begin with, they will manage to screw up. I have no argument on the oil lasting much longer. I do know that it's not for everyone and I know that these discussions about it end up nowhere.

Thanks Telly, that's exactly what I was trying to point out.

[sciphi]

Silet, I agree with your sentiment. And having an out-of-warranty vehicle, long oil changes are good!

[Robert1955]

Yes, its true that some people should not concider accepting the responsability that goes along with using an extended OCI, but I don't think anyone that uses this site is iresponsable to the point that they would not catch a problem before it bit them in the arse. After all we care enough about our cars to be out here living on message boards like we are :)

There are several engines that are known "sludgers" and Amsoil has notes most of them in their recomended drain intervals info sheet and I have included it here.

Engines In Question
Audi/Volkswagen 1.8L 4 turbo 1997-2004 Audi A4, Volkswagen Passat
Chrysler/Dodge 2.7L V-6 1998-2002 Chrylser Concorde, Chrylser Sebring, Dodge Intrepid, Dodge Stratus
Lexus/Toyota 3.0L V-6 1997-2001 Lexus ES300 Toyota Avalon,Sienna,Camry
2.2L 4 1999-2001 Lexus RX300, Toyota Camry Solara; 2001 Toyota Highlander
Saab 2.0L 4 turbo 2.3L 4 turbo 2000-02 9-3 hatchback, 2000-03 9-3 convertible 1999-2003 Saab 9-5, 1999 9-3 Viggen

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Yes, its true that some people should not concider accepting the responsability that goes along with using an extended OCI, but I don't think anyone that uses this site is iresponsable to the point that they would not catch a problem before it bit them in the arse.

Umm. . . don't be so sure. I see it weekly. Seriously. Not Hyundai people, but upscale Honduh kids. And then there's this:
http://www.elantraxd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28913

"I know nothing about it but I want to do it" mentality is what causes the majority of problems. While I like to have faith in humanity, I see the reality of it in my profession. It ain't lookin so hot.

[cclngthr]

That is why you check your oil level every time you get gas :D. If it is starting to sludge up you should notice it. And if it is doing that you have a problem that needs to be fixed. You can not just add a wonder oil and ignore normal checks, I check my oil level each fill up so that means every 3 week days I pop the hood and check. During my previous run of about 8,000miles I did not need to add any oil and when it drained out I was pleased with the dark honey color. I figured it would be a litter darker on that first change as I had Castrol GTX in there so there was some flushing action to get all the dino out. If my testing results come back looking good I will change it out again at the same mileage to see if the color is lighter as there is no dino remains to darken it up.

Not always. I did not see sludge on the dipstick, but noticed it when I changed the oil and cleaned out the drain pan. Sludge tends to collect in the bottom of the pan first, which happened on my car and my mom's car as well. I did not expect sludge buildup on my car, but I saw it and it was clearly evident in the bottom of the drain pan after 4,000 miles with a synthetic oil. I don't drive much either and what trips I do make tend to be short.

Like Silet and others said, Hyundai wants to see regular oil/filter swaps. They want to know when and how often the oil was changed and can tell you that the warranty will be voided because of that number. It does not matter much if you are knowledgeable about cars or not.

I was called today from one of my employees at my shop who said a Honda (2007) with no oil on the dipstick, but the pan was loaded with gunk came in on the hook. Owner showed him a receipt that had Amsoil 10w30 engine oil that was purchased back in November. Car has 15,000 miles on it. Needs an 3engine.