internal or external wastegate?

[clarion]

is it better to have internal or external wastegate?

[O_GT]

Im going to go with an external plus they sound so much better :D

[Mahonroy]

I think one of the factors would be how much boost you are planning on going with... Also, what sounds better about the external? I didn't know u could really hear them?

[O_GT]

An external dumps in to the atmosphere an internal dumps back into the Exhaust if I'm not mistaken so the external makes more noise :D

[OdessitPashka]

I wouldn't recommend having your gasses from your external w/g into the atmosphere.... it will be loud as a air plane ( they call those scream pipe), it will polute the atmosphere and will increase temps under your hood! You don't want any of that!

Internal w/g is good for some PSI and should not be used after you reached certain number. It will also have bigger back pressure than externar w/g therefore turbo lag will be a bit bigger.
people go with internal because its cheaper and saves some room under the hood.
External will cost more money and you need to find a good location for your w/g and the dump pipe....

now you decide what you want :)

[Mahonroy]

If it were me, I would recommend just an internal setup, think of how much work and money it would be, you have two options... Get a turbo manifold with wastegate flange, get a wastegate, get a turbo, get the tubings to attach the wastegate to the turbo, get a dump pipe that attaches to the wastegate, attach the dump pipe to either your current exhaust system via some complicated welds, or have the pipe bend underneith your car and make sure its pointed in a place where its not going to melt stuff.... or just get a turbo manifold, and an internally wastgated turbo, and thats it lol. I think in the end the wastegate would be a better setup, but more complicated...

[OdessitPashka]

well said. but maybe he has a sh*t load of money and wants to have everything top of the line. if that's the case go with external, if not then internal will be fine :)

[2GTS]

An external dumps in to the atmosphere an internal dumps back into the Exhaust if I'm not mistaken so the external makes more noise :D
I think you have waste gates and blow off valves mixed up there.

[Madhatter]

I think you have waste gates and blow off valves mixed up there.

no he is just thinking of the illegal way to set up a dump pipe by venting it into the atmosphere.

the right way to do it is to vent it back into the exhaust or give it its own cat and muffler.

but who am i to sound so righteous? i dont even have A exhaust let alone multiple compenents to comprise an entire legal exhaust system :D

[O_GT]

I wouldn't recommend having your gasses from your external w/g into the atmosphere.... it will be loud as a air plane ( they call those scream pipe), it will pollute the atmosphere and will increase temps under your hood! You don't want any of that!Your right but like I said I love how it sounds

[Elantra2.001]

The job of the wastegate is to eliminate excess gas from the exhaust stream going into the turbo for the purpose of limiting boost. That means that for a given size turbo, you need a smaller wastegate the higher the boost goes since you are not diverting as much to reach the higher boost levels. All wastegates on street cars go back into the exhaust. The difference is where its meets back up with it. On an external wastegate, the diverted gasses meetup with the turbo exhaust further down the line. That improves the flow out of the turbo since it isnt disturbed by gas from an internal wastegate that might flow int to same space as the turbo exhaust. The turbo i bought has an exit for the wastegate that is parallel to the exhaust outlet from the turbo to help eliminate this turbulence. This also means that i can make a separate pipe for the wastegate gas just like with an external wastegate. So how does all this help with your decision? If you want to save space and are using a smallish turbo, internal will be easier to setup and make piping for. If you are using a larger turbo with and need to divert more exhaust gas (for lower boost) then you should consider an external wastegate. Everyrace car you see has an external wastegate. Why? They can afford to have a turbo manifold that has a proper exit for the wastegate gasses. I have not seen a turbo manifold made yet for our cars that has an outlet for an external wastegate that i like and has the proper angle and allows gasses from all runners to be diverted. NONE. The outlet for an internal wastegate is almost ideal since its taking gasses from the flow after its been collected so all runners get relived evenly. Also the exit angle is often very good, especially for the high end dual ball bearing turbos. I am putting in a GT28RS turbo. It has the ability to go up to 400 horses. Im running high boost, so im not going to divert much, so a small wastegate is fine. Also it has the parallel exit from the wastegate to reduce turbulence and give me options as to where i want the gas to meet the exhaust. Lastly the angle into the wastegate section of the turbo is very nice for even flow. I also have less piping to deal with. Now the externals are more adjustable and can be faster working, which means less boost creep, but im using a stand alone with boost management with the ability to help with those issues. In my opinion, for a street car, internal is by far the pest way to go and they still make noise.

[clarion]

so t3 or t4 turbo w/ Interal wastgate set at 7 psi of boost sould be good and with a ssautochrome manifold. if i get a manifold with a conection for an external wastgate can i just block it off with somthing and still use an interal setup? and when i go turbo do i need to have a fmu and bigger injectors?

[Elantra2.001]

SS autochrome makes a manifold without a flange for an external manifold, i have one. I would use that. What HP level are you looking for? And yes, you have to have some way to add fuel based on the amount of boost.

[Madhatter]

keep in mind these ss autochrome mani's are notorious for welds cracking and they use thin steel!

[Elantra2.001]

they only need minor modifications that any welder can do, like use angled braces at the flanges. Also i had mine checked for pinholes and then ported.

[Madhatter]

well if you are already paying to have sh!t rewelded... then why dont you just buy the $75 worth of steel and a $25 flange and have a good solid manifold welded for you???

[Elantra2.001]

You must not have done much research on this. I didnt pay much more than that for the whole manifold. If im gonna do a custom manifold... ill get some good low silicone stainless tubing in 1.75 millimeter diameter and make the runners equal length long style runner into two collectors that will alternate in firing pattern with a smooth flow into a dual connector attached to the turbo so that individual pulses by the engine still reach the turbo. Oh, all flanges will be 12 mm also. The long manifold style means that the turbo will be a ways from directly under the engine giving you more room near the tranny as opposed to right under the engine and more flexibility for piping routes. This manifold will most likely cost... 1200. Ceramic coated of coarse. A bunch of bend just welded to gether will not do what this manifold will, but i dont have money like that. The SS manifold is so cheap, i dont know how they make money on them. Its cheaper to get one of those and do the minor mods needed to make them good than have it done custom.

[Madhatter]

UMMMMMM... you must not have done your research on this...

if you want a cheap thin manifold off of ebay.............. you get what you pay for.

You are the one that said:
they only need minor modifications that any welder can do, like use angled braces at the flanges. Also i had mine checked for pinholes and then ported.

so if this is the case it looks like you are still stuck with a cheap, thin manifold with "bracing." How much can you "port" such thin metal??????????? The ss autochrome manifold is made out of 16 gauge steel. WOW thats thick [/end sarcasm]

I have a log style manifold currently... so i'm not one to talk about an optimized setup, but atleast its made out of 8 guage steel... i do know what would be optimal and i have already purchased the steel bends to weld an equal length manifold together for a total cost of $75 + flanges.

so good luck with your manifold... i will fix it for you for a small cost when it breaks... just email me. later

[clarion]

i have an automatic so i dont want to blow up anything manybe around 190hp or high as it can go with out major mods to tranny or engine, what type of turbo would i need, could i just take one off of an eclipse, i heard the w/g is set at 7psi, i thing it will bolt up to the mani. and also i already have an custom exhaust with a high flow cat the piping is 2.25, could i still use this setup when going turbo

[Madhatter]

yeah you sure can use your current exhaust...

there was a recent post on hp.com that you shoudl check out

http://hyundaiperformance.com/forums/topic.php?t=56227

you can take a td04 out of a mitsu or wrx.. that is a common turbo for the beta engine in answer to your question...

most wastegates your can modify or add a boost controller to adjust the boost above the spring setting....

oh i forgot to add...


good luck with the auto tranny!!!! they suck big donkey balls... lol


your best off switching to a manual...

i have done the swap 2 times now, so email me if you want more info

[Elantra2.001]

Most log styles are iron cast, not steel, so if you got steel, then good for you. The bracing is for the connection to the flanges which should be done on any tubular manifold design to help releive pressure on the seam around the weld. Also since SS is a poor conductor, it doesnt need to be as thick as iron which conducts heat better and the lighterweight means less is supported by the bolts on the manifold itself. The part thats ported is the inlet and outlet, since its a tube, it doesnt need porting in the middle sections. Its all been matched to the head which was also ported. All those bends that you have to weld together are stress points which are gonna need repairs anyway. Any manifold thats uses welds in the bend is asking for trouble. Thats what makes makes the manifold like the one i mentions expensive, fewer welds.

[clarion]

the td04 has a 3 bolt pattern, i wanted something i could just bolt on the cheap-o ssautochrome mani.

[Madhatter]

the td04 has a 3 bolt pattern, i wanted something i could just bolt on the cheap-o ssautochrome mani.

well then you need a t3 or a t3/t4 hyrbid like i got...

you can purchase a t3 super 60 which is pretty optimal for the 2.0L with a moderate boost level for under $500.. or you can even get a rebuilt one for like $400...

or you can get a t3 used for about 1 bill and rebuild it for like $100....

i dont know how to rebuild turbos though... my knowledge is limited to what i have done personally...


edit...

bye the way.. nice reply elantra2.001 ;)

[OdessitPashka]

contact tim from speed-factor he'll get you a super 60 t3 turbo for under $500. most likely :)

[clarion]

i see some t3s on ebay for good prices, one has an option of oil,water, or ball bering whats better( i dont know much about turbos)?

[Madhatter]

i see some t3s on ebay for good prices, one has an option of oil,water, or ball bering whats better( i dont know much about turbos)?

well it depends on the complexity you want to get into.

a water cooled turbo will keep your turbo cooler, but add more parts to the mix, making it harder to set up and maintain.....

but the longevity of the turbo will increase!!! thats proven, for sure....


most people just go with oil cooled.. it is adequate...

[clarion]

and what about the fmu and injectors?

[Madhatter]

and what about the fmu and injectors?

also all dependant on the complexity you want to get into...

personally i would save yourself the trouble off trying to mess with altering a ecm that is made for natural aspiration and go to a stand alone from the start, but this is out of the price range the average tuner.

an safc has extremely limited fuel management from my experience but is used most often in set ups. You will find more information on settting up a safc than any other unit, gauranteed....

if you want what is best for around the same price there are others haveing luck with the emanage, or myself i am currently using a smt-6. Still.. if i started from scratch (which i am currently doing to the most i can afford) i would go with a stand-alone..

[clarion]

what u mean by stand alone?

[Madhatter]

forgot to add... injectors are also dependant on the fuel management device you choose.

i have been reading on this forum that people cannot squeeze excess of 3psi with 290cc injectors with using the safc... this is pathetic!!! lol...

You will need to base what injectors you use off of the fuel pressure your system is delivering and the boost you are running. Your fuel management device will be able to increase this... but i do not have actual numbers per device to give you. Your best bet is trial and error. It is EXTREMELY hard to accurately calculate the size of injector you will actually need... If you go to big you will have a hard *** time setting your idle.... if you have too small you will be running them too hard and have trouble keeping your air/fuel consistant at the higher boost levels/ higher rpm's..

what u mean by stand alone?

stand alone refers to replacing your current engine control module with a new one as opposed to "piggybacking" (merely altering signals your computer interprets)

[clarion]

thanks alot!!!!!!!!!!!! i appreciate your help , i have alot of searching to do ,if i have any more questions i know who to ask. im toast im going to bed. thanks again

[Madhatter]

np. my texas fifth of black velvet is half gone so that means i too must retreat to bed. later man

[Elantra2.001]

The SMT is still really a piggyback though. Albeit a much more advanced one. I have a Perfect Power PRS-8 that is made by the same company that im going to try and make work on my car. The only problem seems to be the trigger from the crank sensor which their technical support team has a fix for. Damn, you two kept up that dialog until 3:30...

[Madhatter]

yeah the smt and the emanage i mentioned as alternatives to the safc (in the same price range) are both piggybacks. You will have problems using a piggyback with a non-factory turbo ecu/ecm. Your settings will not keep the air/fuel ratio exactly conistant because of changes in the sensors you are not controlling/calculating for fuel delivery... for instance if it is a really hot day you will notice that your air/fuel ratio will be different from that of a cold day. But you will probably have problems with a stand alone also... atleast you have more controll of whats going on. I cant tell ya much about a stand alone because well.. i just don't have any experience with them... i've just read about them.

bottomline... if you are running low boost levels and dont need percise controll of whats going on, a piggyback will be adequate... but you wont be probably wont be content with it in the long run. I know i'm not...

I am very anxious to see how the PRS-8 goes for you elantra2.001. Please fill me in when you get it going!! I am torn between a stand alone or running supplemental injectors controlled with a aic.. i know what i should do, but cost is such an issue...

[clarion]

what do you guys think about this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2478622922&category=33742&sspagename=WD1V)

[Madhatter]

what do you guys think about this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2478622922&category=33742&sspagename=WD1V)

eh... well. its ok i guess. but add up what the dude is selling...

t3super60 (probably rebuild, doesnt specify) $400
Maniold: looks like the ss autochrome one $100
cheap blow off valve $50
fpr $50
air filter $15

so i would say no. Buy the **** yourself and you can get better parts for the same price

if you have a beta2 which i'm assuming is why you are here.... you cant even use the fpr... so why bother? Get a walbro 255 instead ($100)

[clarion]

do they make walbro 255 for my car, dont have one for 03 elantras on ebay whats the main site? or is it univeral

[Madhatter]

i dont know... you should be able to use about any walbro 255 that is for a returnless fuel system.

i think the one i got off ebay for $90 was for an eclipse or something. ill look up the part number here in a minute

I just read this on another forum... good to know..
From what I understand Walbro pumps are made to work with variable rate voltages (returnless style pump) or constant rate voltages (return style pump). The samp pump will work on a return or retunless fuel system because of this flexibility and should not burn out prematurely.

this is the one i got im pretty sure of it. linky (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7922662013&category=33555)

[clarion]

thanks again.... so... ssautochrome mani., t3 turbo w/ internal w/g, walbro 255, sonota injectors, intercooler, bov, and some pipes , filter, thats all i need?

[O_GT]

If I'm not mistaken a walbro 255 form an evo will fit with some work.Its a little longer than the stock one

[Elantra2.001]

I dont even know what my walboro is from, i just bought one. I have a fpr also but im converting to return system. The PRS-8 has inputs for temperature also which is why i went with that over the 4 or 6. This way i will have more consistancy in different conditions. I got mine for 500 bucks, but ill definately keep everyone posted on how the install goes. Only issue i have is lack of funds to pay for engine work i had done...

[Mahonroy]

for instance if it is a really hot day you will notice that your air/fuel ratio will be different from that of a cold day.
Doesn't the computer read the temperature of the air going into the intake manifold and if its hot, then restrict some fuel, and if its cold, then add some? Also, what do you guys think of the MAFturburner?

[Madhatter]

yeah the walbro is a lil bigger than the stock fuel pump and you have to cram it in the plastic casing....

Also, what do you guys think of the MAFturburner?

can the MAFterbuner work with a MAP sensor? lol... that would be a question you need to find the answer to before you ask if its any good. I dont have an answer for you on that one....

and yes the computer uses a wide variety of sensors including the AIT to decide the proper amount of fuel to add. it is just the inconsistency of the stock ecm that makes it hard to tune percisely.




DAMN!! this thread is all over the place... lol..

thanks again.... so... ssautochrome mani., t3 turbo w/ internal w/g, walbro 255, sonota injectors, intercooler, bov, and some pipes , filter, thats all i need?

oh i forgot to answer ya.... sorry

you will also need a bsp fitting to tap into your block for an oil feed and other various oil lines and fittings... vacuum line for the blow off valve along with a fitting to tee into another vaccuum line... there is all kinds of little exra **** you will need... might as well get a new fuel filter while you got your pump out. Might be nice to have a boost controoler and a turbo timer. Also you will need an engine management device. A forum member here i believe its adeihl or something close has reported not being able to get over 3 psi with the 290cc sonata injectors. This will be a problem if you plan on using a safc.. you will need a downpipe with flange and an intake pipe with flange also...

just look at the list of what comes in the beta turbo kits available online and duplicate it.... but i think with the addition of what i mentioned above (yeah its kind of a cluster ****.. sorry..) you will have a pretty complete kit.

[Mahonroy]

Yeah I forgot we were talking about MAP's, I was thinking of fuel trims in general (for MAF, or MAP), but the reason why I asked was because I have a MAF sensor in my car (04)

[Madhatter]

oh my bad dude...

here is some other people's opinions link (http://www.focaljet.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB43&Number=820192&Main=820174)