Beta2 Alpine Supercharger...

[DocRxGLS]

Wow, sorry to hear the initial results Ford. I'm glad that some explanations were given as to why this blower has not performed up to expectations thus far....

On a second note, while you were on the phone with Alpine, did you give them the low down on all the extra mods & tweeking of the parts that was necessary to get this thing installed? I guess that some of us with future blower dreams would hope that these issues are resolved before we order one ourselves....


Anyway, Ford, you're da' man! Looking forward to the results after current issues are tweeked. :bowdown:

Mad props to Sed too for lending a helping hand... :clap:

[FordFasteRR]

..
On a second note, while you were on the phone with Alpine, did you give them the low down on all the extra mods & tweeking of the parts that was necessary to get this thing installed? ..:

yup. I told him everything that happened...

[evan938]

wow...that sucks...i hope its an easy fix for you

[sed]

and his response was?

[seraph0503]

the fuel curve doesn't look that great either ford. isn't it supposed to be kinda flat at like 11.5-12.2 or something

[sed]

seraph, the fuel curve is a little rich but its fine where its at.... he'll have to use the stock injectors when he installs the 5th and the unichip and that will flatten out the fuel curve perfectly for the blower.

oh well, all problems we wouldn't be discussing if we got the diagram in the first place.

woulda coulda shoulda,

shawn :)

[seraph0503]

so are you still gonna tune the fuel urself or use alpine settings with the unichip

[sed]

well i can't speak for him but what I think he'll do:

he will use the unichip fuel map at first and then knowing FORD he'll monkey around with the final trims using his split second until he is 100% happy.

shawn :)

[OdessitPashka]

interesting. Well I hope that these issues will be solved man. Good luck with everything and keep us updated :)

btw, what did alpine said about the issues?

[sed]

we;ll get them hammered out, just not something i expected with a "kit"

shawn :)

[FordFasteRR]

interesting. Well I hope that these issues will be solved man. Good luck with everything and keep us updated :)

btw, what did alpine said about the issues?


alpine has assured me that the pulley they supplied is good for 8 psi... they had that same boost on their test car and it was working perectly...


apparently the unichip has some timing tweaks that help pull more power out of it than the stock timing curve..

also, the unichip cools the charge and lowers the intake temps a little... so that is supposed to help some.. and of course the 5th injectors creates a tighter seal on the blower screws so you end up with more boost...

so i suppose the unichip is the best way to go so i'm gonna wait until they send me the wiring diagram so i can hook it up ..

[sed]

ford, call me or im me.

shawn :)

[ilanpro]

So are they emailing you the diagram??

[wattsup4800]

your air fuel ratio is a lot better

[FordFasteRR]

well, john said the a/f ratio should a little richer from 2k to 4k ... so i'm going to fatten that up with my fuel tuner as soon as I get on my way home after work and see how it responds...

however the difference should only be minimal... he said that the fuel curve is perfectly normal after 4000 rpms to redline... :)

......





So are they emailing you the diagram??


yeah, they should send it today.

________________


update:

it is confirmed.. the blower belt is slipping BADLY ...

i did the white-out test.. marked the belt and pulley... drove home 2 miles and checked it... the marks were like 16 inches apart ! HAHAHA


at least now i have some confidence that this can be resolved to some degree.. I should see more boost with the belt at the proper tension !

:)

[techcontib]

Hurry up and fix it already.

[FordFasteRR]

holy ****.

belt is much tighter now... the psi went up to 6 or so... damn it pulls so hard now ! LOL

SWEET :)

[dragonfighter60]

:multiples wooo

[DocRxGLS]

Sweet!!!
:D :clap: :multiples :thumbsup:

[yevRPS]

sweeeeeeeeet...i didn't think alpine would screw up that badly and it must've been something rather simple...good news

[hyunelan2]

too bad that wasn't fixed before the dyno... time for everyone (including me) to open the checkbooks for Ford's Dyno fund.

[techcontib]

Time to go back to the dyno. :D Your tires should feel like there going to break loose all the time.hehe

[slow 2K2GT]

Well ford im glad it got sorted out, you really dont deserve any crap luck with this one. Now get back to the dyno and let us know.

[mrhoaf]

seems to me that it might be best to wait until the unichip is in and the exaust changes made before going to the dyno again.....

then again it's not my car.... so my opinion doesn't really matter....lol...

[SuperGLS]

Well, today's posts started out sad and have ended rather well. I hope you get everything worked out Ford.

[FordFasteRR]

i'm going to hit the dyno again tomorrow :)

[BobMs_wht2k2]

Did you dig out the 'ol G-tech?

[tharptroy]

lol...I could see the G-tech reading out a 9.55@162mph =P

Im glad to hear that the belt was slipping.

I would have been really dissapointed if a $3,000 blower setup only put out 12whp. the torque gain is nice though.

you could try a little water injection into the blower to increase boost a bit, though it may not help much.

and I think you could pick up some torque down low by adding some fuel.

[NorthernYankee]

you could try a little water injection into the blower to increase boost a bit, though it may not help much.

Do you mean Methanol?

--NY

[tharptroy]

lol, no I really meant to say water...I was told that one of the bearings in the blower wasnt closed, so spraying alcohol/methanol/gasoline into the blower would wash the grease out of the bearing.

That problem may only be associated with certain models of blower.. the obvious thing to do would be to call eaton and ask if it'll hurt anything.

the injection of a fine mist of water would still help rotor tip sealing and give him a little more boost.

[FordFasteRR]

to be perfectly honest... i am satisfied with the power level at this point...

I just hope that the fuel is nice and rich tomorrow on the dyno ! :)

[OdessitPashka]

did you wire up the unichip? Glad that it was the belt, but why can't you get it up to 8psi?

you kidding me? You spent $3000 for 6psi??? no way dude! make that thing work like it should!!! get every HP out of that blower, like you were doing before with NA mods.

Can't wait to see you in 14s bro!

[techcontib]

I think the exhaust he is running is what is dropping the 2 psi.

[FordFasteRR]

alpine said their test car had the stock exhaust in place. that is what helped keep the boost so high..

unless i add a small restrictor plate on the exhaust flange, i wont have the back-pressure to reach their same boost level.
also, since i'm not using the unichip, i wont have the same amount of sealing of the roots blower.. so i'll lose a little boost there too.


but overall, it runs and feels great meng !

i did a rolling start in 1st gear and just mashed the gas pedal and the car just ripped the tires loose until redline easily ! haha

:)

[sed]

well i can mash the pedal and rip the tires loose too, just have them @ 4 psi

shawn :)

[OdessitPashka]

will you be able to get higher boost with a new pulley without any problems?

Did you get your unichip wired up???

[sed]

he will ping and explode at higher psi

[FordFasteRR]

i have not yet hooked up the unichip.

i am still using the 310 cc spec-v injectors with the SS ARC1 fuel tuner...

it seems to do the job quite nicely @ this point.


I'll see what happens on the dyno tomorrow and I'll go from there.

I am hoping that i dont have to install the unichip... it just seems like a lot of extra hassle for me at this point.........

but who knows. I am tempted to keep it and try it some day... who knows.


as far as a smaller pulley... I plan to use anything like that @ this point... i want my setup to be reliable and last a long time... so i'm going to enjoy the power gains for a while before I start getting greedy with it.

:)

[OdessitPashka]

he can retard his timing to prevent that.....

[sed]

ok, so up the boost and retard the timing enough not to ping = same power level...

and he didn't install the unichip

[OdessitPashka]

it won't be the same power level if he takes couple degrees off to prevent detonation.... people run high PSI on stock engines with stock compression...

and I think you should install the unichip, if it was made to work with this kit, it should work with it, and that way you'll get more psi :)

[sed]

yeah TURBO people with INTERCOOLERS.

**** man, the supercharger makes soooo much heat at higher psi with 10.5:1 the internal temp will be like 200˚

i mean if you want his motor to blow up....

shawn :/

[OdessitPashka]

didn't think about the "no intercooler" part. Yeah, that blows.

Maybe he'll make some kind of cooling system eventually, and 5th injector would help as well.

[techcontib]

Ford,
Why don't you get the SMT-6 it has all the feature the unichip has. Plus you can tune it yourself with future upgrades.

[sed]

yes the fifth injector will help with the cooling a little.... plus will give him more boost because it'll seal the roots screws more...

There is no way he can cool it.... the blower has no provisions for cooling, the whole manifold and blower have to be modified to cool it. This blower is max 10 psi, anything higher and he will ping like a *****.

The only option he has is to actually upgrade the whole blower, go one or two steps higher. More Cubic inches inside the blower means more boost can be made at lower temperatures.

shawn :)

[only1db]

wow...all this time....and it is finally here...hope all goes well tomorrow!!! cant wait! but man what a PITA to install!...i was hoping to do this on my own...but with all those mods there is no way in hell to do it....

[cclngthr]

I think he was losing maybe 3-5 psi from the slipping belt. Once he gets that taken care of and installing the unichip and putting a cat on the car, he will be able to see better results.

[sed]

there certainly is a lot of modding to do with this "kit"

lol, man is there alot

shawn :)

[OdessitPashka]

I think he was losing maybe 3-5 psi from the slipping belt. Once he gets that taken care of and installing the unichip and putting a cat on the car, he will be able to see better results.
he already fixed the belt :)

[sed]

and there is no way that he is putting a cat on the car.

don't you people read the threads? Ford posted like three times what was wrong and what he did to fix it. I know now why ilan posted all big in the lights thread.

I mean no offense, but the questions I hear every day have already been answered, sometimes in the same exact thread, just two pages before

shawn :)

[oregun]

Question: Alpine told you their "test" vehicle currently had the turbo kit as well. WTF do you mean they had the stock exhaust on?

Anyhow - it dosen't matter. You are using the 8 psi pulley and getting are getting 6 because your exhaust isn't providing the back pressure.

Dosen't it seem counter intuitive to ADD backpressure when a quick swap of the pulley will give you that extra 2 psi? That way you can have a free flowing exhaust and the boost that you want. It makes no freaking sense what so ever to add back pressure to this system. Go ask the guys from NextGen what they think of this principal.

[FordFasteRR]

Question: Alpine told you their "test" vehicle currently had the turbo kit as well. WTF do you mean they had the stock exhaust on?

Anyhow - it dosen't matter. You are using the 8 psi pulley and getting are getting 6 because your exhaust isn't providing the back pressure.

Dosen't it seem counter intuitive to ADD backpressure when a quick swap of the pulley will give you that extra 2 psi? That way you can have a free flowing exhaust and the boost that you want. It makes no freaking sense what so ever to add back pressure to this system. Go ask the guys from NextGen what they think of this principal.


this blower was tested on a beta2 cvvt KIA ...

then it was mocked onto a beta2 from a tib that just happened to have the turbo kit on ... but it was never actually run on the dyno..
they just used the tibby engine to mock up the brackets and stuff for my specific engine.

the KIA they tested on had the stock exhaust in place, that is how they came up with their numbers.

:)

there is a certain equilibrium which can be had with a boosted engine to facilitate cylinder filling that does not directly apply to NA engines..

an NA engine needs a certain degree of backpressure, and sure enough ... too much is not good, and not enough is also bad...

but on a boosted engine... not enough is worse than too much... reason being that the boost is easily bled out of the exhaust valves during the overlap phase...

also, you cant just spin the blower faster to compensate for the drop in boost because all you end up doing is making more heat and lowering the efficiency ... :) so, in the end.. you have a delicate balance that must be preserved.

[sed]

wait why does it make no sense to add backpressure? you are adding some resistance to the airflow wich creates a pressure difference and more boost....

please explain why it is a bad idea
shawn :)

[ilanpro]

this is were a supertrapp would have helped you so much

[oregun]

wait why does it make no sense to add backpressure? you are adding some resistance to the airflow wich creates a pressure difference and more boost....

please explain why it is a bad idea
shawn :)

I don't really think I should have to do this, but okay.

Back pressure is bad. Back pressure is bad. Back pressure is bad.
There is no such thing as good back pressure.
Every PSI of back pressure robs your engine of 1.25% HP. Ask Corky Bell.
But wait? Why don't I put on a 4 inch exhaust. Well, as it has been explained many times. You lose exhaust gas speed, with no appreciable decrease in backpressure.

There is no ****ing way you should be convinced that using exhaust backpressure is a smart/correct way to increase cylinder pressure. You're telling me that by making the exhaust really restrictive, the cylinder boost pressures will go up and more power will be produced? Well, the first part is correct, but a good part of that power is going to be wasted over coming the exhaust restriction and everything is going to be less efficient because of the added heat. Yes, heat. You ignite fuel and air and make heat. It wants to escape, but no, we want a restrictive exhaust system.


The correct way to increase cylinder pressure is to reduce cam overlap by getting a higher lift, shorter duration cam.
Since that is not an option right now, shove in more air! Seriously.
If Apline has tested the kit at 8 Psi with the stock compression - then it will run at 8 Psi. Granted, they have the cooling effect of the 5th injector.

If you are loosing boost during cam overlap, but want to get to 8 psi and are currently at 6 - USE THE SMALLER PULLEY! Also, I'd give that 5th injector the old college try.

Finally, ask NextGen about headers/ loosing boost/ and smaller pulleys.!

[Pumbaa]

spoken like a true honda enthusiast

A certain amount of backpressure creates torque, especially on a short stroke motor. NA Speaking. Now underboost, yes, its good to increase exhaust gas exit speed, but only to a point. And with such a touchy SC as we have here, you need some backpressure. As spoken in previous posts about timing, the timing is off a bit. I see the problem being the missing Unichip. It is the key until ford can get it tuned to get the boost under control. The combination of timing and backpressure is what is going to give him the gains. If you remove it completely the incoming air won't have enough time to compress before being sucked into the cylinder. Adjusting the time can in effect help fix the problem, but, until the backpressure situation is set correctly the timing should not be touched.

[FordFasteRR]

I don't really think I should have to do this, but okay.

Back pressure is bad. Back pressure is bad. Back pressure is bad.
There is no such thing as good back pressure.
Every PSI of back pressure robs your engine of 1.25% HP. Ask Corky Bell.
But wait? Why don't I put on a 4 inch exhaust. Well, as it has been explained many times. You lose exhaust gas speed, with no appreciable decrease in backpressure.

There is no ****ing way you should be convinced that using exhaust backpressure is a smart/correct way to increase cylinder pressure. You're telling me that by making the exhaust really restrictive, the cylinder boost pressures will go up and more power will be produced? Well, the first part is correct, but a good part of that power is going to be wasted over coming the exhaust restriction and everything is going to be less efficient because of the added heat. Yes, heat. You ignite fuel and air and make heat. It wants to escape, but no, we want a restrictive exhaust system.


The correct way to increase cylinder pressure is to reduce cam overlap by getting a higher lift, shorter duration cam.
Since that is not an option right now, shove in more air! Seriously.
If Apline has tested the kit at 8 Psi with the stock compression - then it will run at 8 Psi. Granted, they have the cooling effect of the 5th injector.

If you are loosing boost during cam overlap, but want to get to 8 psi and are currently at 6 - USE THE SMALLER PULLEY! Also, I'd give that 5th injector the old college try.

Finally, ask NextGen about headers/ loosing boost/ and smaller pulleys.!


You have made some good points.

However.. I would like to clear up the fact that an engine is a dynamic machine... it does not have the same exact flow at all rpms... therefore, auto-makers have installed variable valve control devices into most modern cars... our 01-03 XD's do not have this feature so cylinder filling is not optimal at all engine speeds...

forget about cylinder pressure at this moment ( cylinder pressure is not necessarily a result of air flow ), rather, cylinder pressure is a result of the bore diameter x stroke. but, cylinder FILLING is a function of pumping characteristics...

I would say that backpressure is useful in some areas, and not so useful in others... for example...

this picture shows how in a 2005 kawasaki ninja 6R , the ecu controls an electronic valve ( restrictor plate ) in the exhaust pipe to produce better low and mid-range throttle response and torque ... simply adding a restriction helps to fill the cylinders at lower engine speeds.. of course, rev the sucker up and the valve is opened fully to allow less restriction and more exhaust gas flow ..

http://www.nitrousworld.com/pictures/ninja-6r-exhaust-valve.jpg

so in theory, alpines reasoning for making more power has some truth in regards to stock levels of exhaust flow restriction under boost.

[dmdicks]

Ford, did you ever take your Cam timing back to stock or is it still advanced?

[FordFasteRR]

its still advanced 8 degrees.

[2GTS]

If you're trying to match Alpines numbers I'd put the cam timing back to stock, as this is how Alpine tested their system. After you get a baseline with the cam timing at stock settings and the Unichip installed and doing it's thing then I'd start doing experiments. That 8 degrees advance could be robbing a couple hp.

[FordFasteRR]

........ That 8 degrees advance could be robbing a couple hp.


alpine specifically told me that advancing the cam timing with the blower setup should yield more power and more torque than the stock cam settings..

however, i have some good news !

I went to the magical land of ebay and i found a silicone 90 degree elbow to replace the PVC one that i have on there now...

check this out !!

http://www.maxspeed-motorsports.com/maximages/90degree.jpg

this one is 2.5 inch diameter ... i am looking for a 3 inch @ this point...


wish me luck with finding it ! HAHA

also, at this website: http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-SIL-064&Category_Code=BCS

i found the 3 inch one for $ 41 ... ouch !

http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/Catalog%20Images/Silicone/SIL-90Degree1-225225.jpg

[yevRPS]

what about trying to avoid a 90 degree angle? that's rather drastic and restrictive..well at least intuitively

[pjc6281]

Good luck Ford, I wish alpine was helping you out more because you being the guini pig is going to determine the amount of sales they get from this S/C.

pete

[FordFasteRR]

what about trying to avoid a 90 degree angle? that's rather drastic and restrictive..well at least intuitively

i wish I could avoid it, but if you have seen my pictures you will understand why I must use the 90 degree elbow.

[yevRPS]

yeah i saw from the picture how things are located. maybe down the road someone will stumble upon another find like 94-97 accord CAI that will fit your needs...or maybe some custom bent pipes..just a thought

[sed]

http://www.machv.com/90elco.html

http://www.turbohoses.com/90%20Degree.htm

http://www.autospeed.com/shop/category_1676/browse.html

http://www.modyourcar.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=2719

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/silhose3.htm

http://www.needforspeed.co.uk/pages/sbv_pl.asp?Vehicle=UV___01&PartType=HOS02

http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/misc/vent/protech/fasnsealbuypage.htm

[dmdicks]

actually if the diameter of the pipe stays consistent throughout the bend you will have little to no restriction from it.

[SWortham]

This one SED posted from Mach V Motorsports looks the best as long as that bend isn't too wide.
http://store1.yimg.com/I/machv_1821_473227

[sed]

don't i just kick ***?

;)

shawn :)

[slvrsleeper]

Three words for you Ford my man......Shaker Hood Scoop! That would be soooooooooooo badass! Especially if you painted the hood flat black Mopar style! "That thing gotta hemi?"......... "Nope just a Beta II" Followed by blinding cloud of vulcanized rubber. LOL

[ilanpro]

Again Ford Get a Supertrapp

[FordFasteRR]

ok, went back to the dyno..
i had to ditch the spec-v injectors in favor of a set of sonata injectors ( out $$$ 318 for the set from TC ) ..

the ecu trimmed them up just fine and the fuel curve is nice and clean now...

power = 173 whp & torque = 157 ft.lb

boost = 5 or 6 psi at peek. :)

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/Feb_1_alpine_dyno.jpg

[ilanpro]

Steve Give me 220 at the wheels please, great job man how about a gtech run

[FordFasteRR]

Steve Give me 220 at the wheels please, great job man how about a gtech run

I dont play with the gtech anymore..

i deemed it to be useless ... i took it to the track and did 5 back-to back runs with the g-tech on... it was off by a second or more in each direction every time !

the mph was WAAYYY off ..

so screw that :)

I'll be @ moroso on friday to test out the blower :)

[ilanpro]

can you intercool the blower??

[FordFasteRR]

can you intercool the blower??

using water / alcohol injection yes.

otherwise ... no.

:)

[tharptroy]

nice torque curve....I think you're going to be happy with that for a while!

nice to see it work out!

[techcontib]

I predict 173whp.
Damn I am good.

[OdessitPashka]

very nice man! 173 whp is pretty damn good!

how about unstalling unichip with 5th injector and cranking the boost up!!??

[CTele02]

from 133 to 173 thats pretty much what Alpine advertised for the kit to do, but with some more tweeking and some extra boost it can probably get to 200whp.

[ilanpro]

and with the 10psi pulley

[techcontib]

With the unichip and the 5th injecter I perdict 184whp.hehe
Oh forgot to mention as well that is a sweet trq curve. Nice set of cams should net a bit of hp as well. If your up for more hp.
Edit: Ford what was your car stock before any mods where done?

[SWortham]

It seems like the 5th injector may add enough cooling to safely allow for some more boost. But it's better to sort out any problems that might creep up when running low boost, so Ford is doing it right. ;)

[GodisintheTV]

quickly off topic how much hp is 173whp roughly

[Pumbaa]

I would guess about 189HP at the crank

[hyunelan2]

So basically you can piss on any N/A Delta engine out there huh? And that's before any fine-tuning of this thing. If you're up 30 or so hp from the start of the SC install, I'd say you're at roughly $100 per whp?

[SWortham]

I think there's about a 13% power loss through the manual tranny. So 173whp would be about 195 hp at the crank... or a 60 crank hp improvement over stock.

[FordFasteRR]

i'm up 40 whp and 21 ft.lb torque ..

so i went from 133 whp to 173 whp..
and from 136 wtq to 157 wtq.

I know there is more power to be had, but I am more interested in longetivity and safety at this point.

I want to thank everybody who has been reading and helping me along with this mod ...

so far, I have spent almost 4000 on just the blower related stuff..

just doing the dyno yesterday and today + the new injectors sucked up $ 460 !!!!!!! ouch ! i'm so broke right now :)

i'm gonna have to sit back and chill for a few months to re-build my funds before I can really do anything else...

:)

[techcontib]

i'm up 40 whp and 21 ft.lb torque ..

so i went from 133 whp to 173 whp..
and from 136 wtq to 157 wtq.

I know there is more power to be had, but I am more interested in longetivity and safety at this point.

I want to thank everybody who has been reading and helping me along with this mod ...

so far, I have spent almost 4000 on just the blower related stuff..

just doing the dyno yesterday and today + the new injectors sucked up $ 460 !!!!!!! ouch ! i'm so broke right now :)

i'm gonna have to sit back and chill for a few months to re-build my funds before I can really do anything else...

:)

Go out and start driving and stop posting. :D

[DAILLESTWUN]

Well I didn't work yesterday so I was unable to read the 100 or so new posts...lol...but it was fun chillin and drinkin..the bbq was off the chain. Hopefully I can go to Mororso let's see.. I'll be by your house again this weekend, hopefully we can install my Ground wire kit... HOLLA!!!

[sed]

damn right, i am a badass cook!!!

shawn :)

[slvrsleeper]

Now, go forth and dispense the teachings of the Alpine. Yeah verily I say unto thee drivers of slow, riced out imports the Prophet Ford is at hand. We need video Ford lots of video, video from Moroso in fact. Get your disciple Sed to film your Z-car spanking antics so the rest of us can live vicariously.

[FordFasteRR]

Well I didn't work yesterday so I was unable to read the 100 or so new posts...lol...but it was fun chillin and drinkin..the bbq was off the chain. Hopefully I can go to Mororso let's see.. I'll be by your house again this weekend, hopefully we can install my Ground wire kit... HOLLA!!!

lets do the ground wire kit this weekend :)

[FordFasteRR]

damn right, i am a badass cook!!!

shawn :)

bbq baby ***** :) HAHAHA


Now, go forth and dispense the teachings of the Alpine. Yeah verily I say unto thee drivers of slow, riced out imports the Prophet Ford is at hand. We need video Ford lots of video, video from Moroso in fact. Get your disciple Sed to film your Z-car spanking antics so the rest of us can live vicariously.


holy crap.. some of you people need to gather yourselves up... now... lets find some subways to fill with poisonous gas. :)

[mrhoaf]

holy crap.. some of you people need to gather yourselves up... now... lets find some subways to fill with poisonous gas. :)

Did Sed hijack your account and post that????? LOL!!!

[slow 2K2GT]

I agree, video lots of video! Yeah Ford make that ***** whine so we can all hear! Pin er to the floor and make er scream...:D

[slvrsleeper]

bbq baby ***** :) HAHAHA





holy crap.. some of you people need to gather yourselves up... now... lets find some subways to fill with poisonous gas. :)
I think thats more Rev Jim Jones than anything else.....Kool-Aid anyone?

[FordFasteRR]

I think thats more Rev Jim Jones than anything else.....Kool-Aid anyone?


i thinks its more like that cult from japan or something...

lol

[sed]

do we all have our 2.75 and nike shoes on???

ok, now bow down and put your head directly on the blower.....

shawn ;)

[slvrsleeper]

Could you make an XD run on Sarin?

[FordFasteRR]

Could you make an XD run on Sarin?

thats the $**** this guy used !

damn that guy was crazy...

lol... but i dont think the xd will run on that.

[rckozma]

I know there is more power to be had, but I am more interested in longetivity and safety at this point.


Okay, tell your wife to put down the keyboard and go get Ford, because I know this is not you talking.

Good work - you da man!

[FordFasteRR]

Okay, tell your wife to put down the keyboard and go get Ford, because I know this is not you talking.

Good work - you da man!


I suspect that in a few months i'll get bored of the power and want more...

lol :)


this always happens. its an insane cycle of depravity.

[Dust]

I don't really think I should have to do this, but okay.

Back pressure is bad. Back pressure is bad. Back pressure is bad.
There is no such thing as good back pressure.
Every PSI of back pressure robs your engine of 1.25% HP. Ask Corky Bell.
But wait? Why don't I put on a 4 inch exhaust. Well, as it has been explained many times. You lose exhaust gas speed, with no appreciable decrease in backpressure.

There is no ****ing way you should be convinced that using exhaust backpressure is a smart/correct way to increase cylinder pressure. You're telling me that by making the exhaust really restrictive, the cylinder boost pressures will go up and more power will be produced? Well, the first part is correct, but a good part of that power is going to be wasted over coming the exhaust restriction and everything is going to be less efficient because of the added heat. Yes, heat. You ignite fuel and air and make heat. It wants to escape, but no, we want a restrictive exhaust system.


The correct way to increase cylinder pressure is to reduce cam overlap by getting a higher lift, shorter duration cam.
Since that is not an option right now, shove in more air! Seriously.
If Apline has tested the kit at 8 Psi with the stock compression - then it will run at 8 Psi. Granted, they have the cooling effect of the 5th injector.

If you are loosing boost during cam overlap, but want to get to 8 psi and are currently at 6 - USE THE SMALLER PULLEY! Also, I'd give that 5th injector the old college try.

Finally, ask NextGen about headers/ loosing boost/ and smaller pulleys.!

I agree. Back pressure is bad, scavenging is good. Big exhaust drops boost. Boost is the measurement of restriction at a certain flow. I lost 2 lbs. of boost by doing exhaust on my Grand Prix. Restriction was decreased, flow from engine was the same, there for the boost number dropped. Put on a smaller pulley and boost went back to where it was.

[slvrsleeper]

Now wait a minute, we're getting our kooks all messed up here. The Japanese subway nut-jobs used Sarin. Jim Jones used Cyanide in Kool-Aid. And the Hale-Bop comet loonies used poisoned Grape Jello

[SuperGLS]

Glad you got it working like it is suppose too. Very exciting indeed. What kind of guess do you have for a 1/4 mile time?

Guys, this thread may be the most important thread on EXD, ever, so, let's stay on topic (meaning no more posts about sarin, cyanide, etc... thanks).

[FordFasteRR]

well, i spoke to alpine again.. john convinced me to give the unichip a try...

he is sending me the detailed manual and i'll try to get it hooked up this weekend of sometime next week... then i'll head back to the dyno one last time to see how it goes...

if it works out, i'll keep it.. if not... i'll send it back to them.. That is the agreement we made over the phone so we'll see what happens :)

[dragonfighter60]

argh, foiled by forgeting to reload the page before replying

[sed]

sorry super :(

man i told you to use the unichip on the phone!! that might put you over 180 whp!

plus the charger will be cooler from the 5th injector and it will run more effciently....

shawn :)

[cclngthr]

Are you going to hook up the unichip? That last run was much better, but it can be improved. I think Xorro on her first run was only producing 157 whp. I also think if you had the exhaust set up better, you will achieve 200+ whp.

What I had planned for my engine was keeping the stock exhaust manifold and the catback setup I have now. It isn't exactly stock, but has more flow. I think this will work just fine. On my truck, which the engine is at 9.3-4 liters (572 CI) I put a dual 4 inch exhaust and it works better than the 2 4.5 inch pipes I originally put on it. I think the 2 1/4 inch is big enough for the boosted 2 liter engine. a 2.5 inch without a cat might be too much flow.

[rckozma]

I will second Ilanpro's suggestion - get a Supertrapp muffler. You can adjust the back pressure on the fly. You could do it while you are having the dyno done. You add discs for less back pressure and remove discs for more back pressure.

[FordFasteRR]

I will second Ilanpro's suggestion - get a Supertrapp muffler. You can adjust the back pressure on the fly. You could do it while you are having the dyno done. You add discs for less back pressure and remove discs for more back pressure.

the supertrapp may be functional, but its ugly as hell.

so I don't plan to use that..

and CC... yes, i'll be installing the unichip soon... don't know if it'll be this week or next...

i'm tired and broke.

[evan938]

so far, I have spent almost 4000 on just the blower related stuff..

just doing the dyno yesterday and today + the new injectors sucked up $ 460 !!!!!!! ouch ! i'm so broke right now :)

i'm gonna have to sit back and chill for a few months to re-build my funds before I can really do anything else...

:)

whatd i tell you ilanpro? there are gonna be additional costs ontop of the 3k for the blower...where ford is at in $$ now, i will be just over w/ my whole turbo setup...i might pass him by 500$, but im sure hes gonna add some other things to be up there with me

[FordFasteRR]

whatd i tell you ilanpro? there are gonna be additional costs ontop of the 3k for the blower...where ford is at in $$ now, i will be just over w/ my whole turbo setup...i might pass him by 500$, but im sure hes gonna add some other things to be up there with me


well, in response to this.. if i would have had the unichip instructions in the first place, i wouldnt have had to buy the injectors... and it would have only been the exact cost of the blower to get it hooked up and working...

[evan938]

yeah, but there are other costs along with the blower...im sure you upgraded the clutch (i hope)...thats 5-600$, dyno tuning, etc...you said the injectors were 300 (which you got ripped...kspec has sonata 290s for like 180$)

just saying spending 3k on a kit isnt gonna give you 100% of what you need...there will always be nickle and dime ****

[sed]

He upgraded the clutch a long time ago and he spent like 200 bucks.

and he got the injectors today, no shipping, delivered to him @ the dyno. KSPEC isn't going to do that.

[FordFasteRR]

well, if i would have installed the unichip, upgraded injectors are not required..

the system is designed to operate with the stock injectors...

:)

[rckozma]

the supertrapp may be functional, but its ugly as hell.



Ouch, that hurts :( Oh, wells to each his own. I like mine because it is flat black and goes with the theme of my car, plus it is tuneable.

[sed]

well if i remember correctly i was the one who said, let me go online and find the ecu pins for the unichip and install it

and you were the one who told me to **** it

shawn :)

[cclngthr]

the supertrapp may be functional, but its ugly as hell.

so I don't plan to use that..

and CC... yes, i'll be installing the unichip soon... don't know if it'll be this week or next...

i'm tired and broke.

I think using the unichip and stock injectors along with a 5th injector will get you more hp and torque.

I talked to Jim, my buddy who builds boosted engines; and he said that you have:

1. too much flow through the engine, which does not allow the mix to burn efficiently. In simplest terms, the engine is leaking.

2. you need to get the fuel system taken care of. He thinks using stock injectors plus the unichip-5th injector will get you more hp and torque.

3. Timing might need adjusting. He thinks by retarding the timing 3-4 degrees, you will be happier with the hp/torque readings.

I can't help but notice people making a mistake of saying you need massive exhaust flow. The problem here is the fuel cannot burn without the time in the combustion chamber. Too much flow, you have no torque and raw fuel is running out the engine. A engine with mass hp won't get you down the road. Torque does that. Hp and torque readings should be as close as possible. A engine with 300 hp won't outperform one with one with 250 pounds of torque and 275 hp.

[sed]

explained...

[cclngthr]

uhm i think i said backpressure and less flow was a good idea, and i asked the other guy why backpressure is bad....

ugh

shawn

I noticed some people believe this (still). I did not mean it was you that said it, but others.

[sed]

10-4

Ford, like i said from the get go, i'll hook up the unichip for you, especailly if you don't feel like it.

all you have to do is ask

shawn :)

[Dust]

ford, one thing you might want to consider.

Running nitrous, fuel, etc, over the rotors in the SC will strip the coating off, or at least will take the teflon off of my rotors.

[FordFasteRR]

well if i remember correctly i was the one who said, let me go online and find the ecu pins for the unichip and install it

and you were the one who told me to **** it

shawn :)

I have the instructions from alpine now.

they are clear and easy to follow, however at the time, the instructions were not online for you to find dude.. ehehe

and you are more than welcome to install it for me now that we know where the wires go :)

I do not question your abilities master sed ! HEHEHE

as for the rest of the speculations... I plan to install the unichip and see how it goes... and then you can all draw further conclusions .


:bowdown:

[tharptroy]

valve timing dictates the intake air's ability to escape the combustion chamber. by having a high restriction exhaust system, you're only inviting reversion.


that is not to say that an exhaust system that is huge is going to net more power, because you're going to slow the velocity at which the gasses travel in the stream, minimizing scavengine.

you typically want as small of an exhaust as you can get and still make power up top.

its been a long day, and I forgot what the hell point I was making...but you want velocity, not backpressure. backpressure, however may be a result of high velocity systems.

[cclngthr]

valve timing dictates the intake air's ability to escape the combustion chamber. by having a high restriction exhaust system, you're only inviting reversion.


that is not to say that an exhaust system that is huge is going to net more power, because you're going to slow the velocity at which the gasses travel in the stream, minimizing scavengine.

you typically want as small of an exhaust as you can get and still make power up top.

its been a long day, and I forgot what the hell point I was making...but you want velocity, not backpressure. backpressure, however may be a result of high velocity systems.


How many boosted engines have you built? I'm not being sarcastic about this, but, your information is full of flaws regarding the dynamics of making any kind of power.

You claim that a restrictive exhaust is bad for the engine. How will the engine make any power when there is no chance of ignition of the fuel mix and have it push the piston down? That has to happen in order for the engine to make any kind of power. The gas mix must be in the combustion chamber long enough to push that piston anywhere. Valve timing has to be at the stock level in order to get the engine to run right. The valve overlap will cause some leakage, but the exhaust system will need to be at a specific level in order to keep the gas in the combustion chamber long enough to produce any kind of torque. Ignition timing on boosted engines typically is about 3-4 degrees lower than stock due to detonation.

Jim's 1 ton truck with a 454 V8 with a 671 GMC blower produces 750 whp and 725 ft. lbs. of torque. He has a dual exhaust with a stock manifold and 2.5 inch pipes and a CR of 8:1. His boost level is about 5 pounds. His 54 Merc also has the same engine, but is producing about 800 whp and 750 ft. lbs. of torque with about 7 pounds of boost. The difference between the two engines is the Merc engine has a larger cam, valves and dual carb setup and a larger blower. Exhaust setup is with a custom header, which isn't working that well and a 3 inch dual exhaust. He was expecting the motor to produce about 1,100 whp. However it is not running at peak performance.

[oregun]

You claim that a restrictive exhaust is bad for the engine.

It is. Want to go to the extreme. Shove a rag in your tail pipe and see how your engine runs. Do you know how much heat the engine will retain?

The gas mix must be in the combustion chamber long enough to push that piston anywhere. Valve timing has to be at the stock level in order to get the engine to run right.


What?! The gas mix burns/explodes. The resulting explosion "pushes" on the piston. The amount of time that the gas stays in the cylinder is irrelevant in terms of maximizing power. What is important is that all of the fuel gets burned by the ignition.

And this valve timing thing? Nope. Totally wrong. For any boosted application, you want valve overlap minimized (you would argue that the stock timing favors MORE overlap). More specifically for superchargers, you want the intake side to open fast and wide, then close quickly. For turbos, you also add duration on the exhaust pulse to drive the turbo.



Jim's 1 ton truck with a 454 V8 with a 671 GMC blower produces 750 whp and 725 ft. lbs. of torque. He has a dual exhaust with a stock manifold and 2.5 inch pipes and a CR of 8:1. His boost level is about 5 pounds. His 54 Merc also has the same engine, but is producing about 800 whp and 750 ft. lbs. of torque with about 7 pounds of boost. The difference between the two engines is the Merc engine has a larger cam, valves and dual carb setup and a larger blower. Exhaust setup is with a custom header, which isn't working that well and a 3 inch dual exhaust. He was expecting the motor to produce about 1,100 whp. However it is not running at peak performance.

I don't understand the relevance to the current discussion. Yes the exhaust pipes are different between the two engines. Additionally, there are at least 5 other variables between them that don't match.

[tharptroy]

how the hell...you'd have to have some really poor engine design for all of the intake charge to flow out through the exhaust valve before it fills the cylinder. you're talking about operating on an extremely fine line. the pressure in the exhaust port would have to be exactly equal to the boost pressure in the chamber to prevent the boost from flowing out into the exhaust, and to prevent the exhaust from flowing back into the combustion chamber.

Im not sure what the hell we're arguing about, and after reading your post, I dont think you do either. and its cool that your friend has two motors with different equipment making two different power levels... I wasnt seeing the connection there either.

there's a hell of alot more that goes into an exhaust design than just using the smallest pipes you can find. we both know that. 28psi of boost doesnt mean a goddamned thing if the spent combustion gasses dont leave the chamber...

let me try to sum up my thoughts...
smaller exhausts dont automatically make more power on boosted engines. I think thats all I was really getting at. if you're buddy put a 1" exhaust on his supercharged motor, he would probably gain a PSI (maybe more, not important) or so...but that doesnt mean he'll be making more power. I think we all know you can lose power by going with too large of an exhaust...


I have a hard time beleiving that you actually read my post, since we're essentially saying the same thing in different words.

I'll do some research on the backpressure vs velocity thing just to make sure Im not blowing smoke up everyone's asses. ehh...3.75 more hours until its time to wake up for school

[FordFasteRR]

i'd like to chime in here...

i have done lots of reading on this subject and I think I know what CC is trying to get at with his explanation and here it is...

1. if you dont have enough back-pressure, your air/fuel mixture will partially blow out of the exhaust valve before it closes.
2. say you had 100% air/fuel mixture going into the combustion chamber, and 10% of that leaked out before the exhaust valve closed.. you end up with only 90% of the mixture to burn... that is a loss of 10% ...

3. if you were to slightly increase the back-pressure, then you might lose, say... 5 % instead of 10, and then you would have 95% overall mixture to burn which will yield more power.

Does this make sense ?

Regardless, those statements are true. I have read many books to confirm those 3 points above... however, there is always experience.. which I lack much of in regards to boosted engines.... so please, reply with any useful comments.

:)

[cclngthr]

It appears that oregun and tharptroy does not understand how a leak starts, even with a good engine. Ford and Sed apparently do.

That being said, I know Ford knows what he is doing and that is confirmed with my own experience and the builders I have regular contact with (in building boosted engines).

[FordFasteRR]

I would also like to point out that cylinder scavenging ( the effect of the exhaust momentum actually working to help draw fresh air/fuel into the cylinders during overlap ) is not as important on a boosted engine as on an NA motor.

Typically, exhaust scavenging can be improved by using a " tuned " header and a correctly sized exhaust pipe diameter and length...

As some of you may know, velocity is achieved quicker in the rpm band by using a smaller diameter exhaust pipe.. however, the smaller the pipe, the more restrictive it will be once the rpms increase !

so again.. on a supercharged engine, the balance of flow vs pipe diameter will be different because the air/fuel mixture is no longer motivated into the cylinders by atmospheric pressure.. isntead, the air/fuel is forced into the cylinders... scavenging is not as critical for performance..

now we have the need to help keep the air/fuel mixture in the cylinders without losing boost pressure..

to do this, we have to think of the opposite concept of what we learned above...
we have to design a system that will promote the retention of air/fuel in the cylinders instead of promoting the scavenging effect.

This does not mean that the exhaust should not be tuned or properly sized, this just means that there are new factors involved in helping to keep the a/f from escaping like it did on the NA engine !

[DubyaO]

Ford, how does one tune their exhaust properly? I would imagine dynos and other meters are involved buy my question really is around the actual header-catback issue. Do you keep trying different exhausts and test? Or use a calculator based off of your engine mods and dynamics?

[cclngthr]

As I mentioned before, Jim chose to use a dual 2.5 inch pipe with a stock manifold on his truck. The exhaust is about what you want in a NA engine, so the flow will be enough to get enough air in and still be efficient enough to make enough torque and hp. Since he as a blower attached to it, his theory is that of slowing the flow just enough to get as much hp and torque from the engine on pump gas with the boost he has on it. On his Merc, he has a dual dinnerplate 4 bbl carb setup and he chose headers with a 2.25 inch pipe from each cylindar with a 3 inch exhaust. Since he is pushing twice the volume of air/fuel mix, he wants the flow to be higher. However, we can also expect close to twice the hp and torque from that engine. However, right now, he is redoing the exhaust to keep things in the way that they will work.

However, even on boosted engines, you do have to think about having no boost. At idle, the boost is not there as it is at high speed (blower turning slower). There is a delicate balance between flow and too much flow. An engine with low boost at idle will not perform well if the flow is moving too fast. At higher RPM, there will be enough boost if the conditions are right, but the boost cannot be too high either.

[FordFasteRR]

Ford, how does one tune their exhaust properly? I would imagine dynos and other meters are involved buy my question really is around the actual header-catback issue. Do you keep trying different exhausts and test? Or use a calculator based off of your engine mods and dynamics?


I have a book that has an exact step by step guide to designing headers, but for the average enthusiast like you or me, changing from a stock manifold to any aftermarket header will yield more power and more scavenging effects under NA conditions.

Just like this chart: But I cant find one that I posted that had the exhaust pipe diameter vs hp supported ... dang...
_______________________________________

I got this from my new tuning book... i thought it was cool to share this... and this only applies to regular gasoline engines...

this chart shows you how much hp you can support @ 39.2 psi fuel pressure.. obviously, if you boost up the pressure, you can support more power out of the same size fuel line...

check it:

Tube OD-------Tube ID---------HP Supported

1/4---------------.180-----------165
5/16--------------.243------------300
3/8----------------.319------------500
1/2----------------.444-----------1000

The bold line is what the XD Beta 2 Elantra comes with...

[2GTS]

Now explain to me why you would want to mess with the exhaust piping size instead of just reducing cam overlap? Seems to be the exhaust piping change is a half assed way to deal with an issue of too much overlap on a boosted engine.

[FordFasteRR]

found it !!


This chart shows Engine HP & Tail pipe diameter.
It is an approximation and applies to all engine types.
For dual exhaust setups, divide the engine HP by 2.

HP Range --- Exhaust pipe diameter
80 -120 --- 1 7/8
110-140 --- 2
130-150 --- 2 1/8
140-185 --- 2 1/4
180-220 --- 2 1/2
210-265 --- 2 3/4
250-320 --- 3
280-360 --- 3 1/2
400-500 --- 4
480-630 --- 4 1/2
580-750 --- 5

wow....... so for an NA BPU Elantra, it should be 2 1/4 (baseline) for peek torque and hp flow efficiency.


____________


Now explain to me why you would want to mess with the exhaust piping size instead of just reducing cam overlap? Seems to be the exhaust piping change is a half assed way to deal with an issue of too much overlap on a boosted engine.


I'm not saying that you should do this, i'm just saying that you want to be within specs of this chart for whatevery our given HP is ...

you are right about messing with the exhaust cam overlap... but in order to do that you'll need to have a custom cam made.. so far, nobody has been able to provide a dyno chart that shows any real benefit...


I have read that on the evo8 motor, they use a set of bigger cams with more duration and it gives a nice boost in power...

but the problem here is that a turbo car already has plenty of back-pressure to help keep the boost in the cylinders because the turbine itself is a HUGE restriction on the exhaust flow regardless of the overlap on the cams...

for an NA motor, you have to have a super-genious design the cams ... i guess its possible but like i said, nobody has shown anything for me to compare to !

____________________________

update on the intake elbow...

I found this one on ebay.. it was 8.99 + 6 shipping... not bad... 3 inch ID rubber...

http://www.icehouse.net/no7up/90HL3alt.jpg

http://www.icehouse.net/no7up/90HL3.jpg

Hopefully this one will work great... !!!

[cclngthr]

Ford, like I said, those numbers are within the range of what we were talking about.

[Pumbaa]

Yeah I have read a chart just like that one above Ford for the exhaust diameter. And you are 100% correct when you speak about the backpressure caused by a turbo setup. Alot of people forget about that when they compare superchargers to turbo's. That is why you read about removing as much backpressure from a turbocharged setup. But in the supercharged setup you do not have that backpressure.

Didn't you say your cam timing was already retarded 8 degree's in a previous post. In my opinion I don't think you'll want to change that setting at all. Since your exhaust system is less restrictive I believe you should keep it the same to prevent scaveging. Me and CC were both talking about the blowout effect the night before, that is why he posted it.

And he only posted about the SC V8's because he wanted people to understand that a smaller diameter pipe will prevent the blowout.

As for cam timing, rpw does custom cams for a reasonable price, though, shipping is killer. You would have to do some mad calculating to get the right lobe measurements to get the cams tuned for your current boost application.

[FordFasteRR]

.....

Didn't you say your cam timing was already retarded 8 degree's in a previous post. In my opinion I don't think you'll want to change that setting at all. ...............


nononono..
my cams are advanced 8 degrees.

this helps to keep the boost in the cylinders but not during overlap.. overlap remains completely stock, advancing the cams simply shifts the point at which the exhaust valve closes to an earlier point, therefore also yielding higher mixture and boost retention in the cylinders.

Alpine was surprised to see how flat my torque curve was... I credit that torque curve to the advanced cams !

:)

[oregun]

It appears that oregun and tharptroy does not understand how a leak starts, even with a good engine.

I've only got three hours of sleep and just finished a Medical School final, so sorry if I'm a little crabby, but . . .
1) It would appear that you are a pretentious Fuc*! I actually know exactly what I'm talking about, and you are kind of pissing me off.
2) Nobody is advocating that Ford needs "Massive Exhaust Flow".
He has a header, 2.5 inch exhaust, and no functional cat. We are not advocating that he go any bigger.

While Ford's explaniation of *your* oh-so-great engine dynamics was elequent, I already understand the theory as presented by you, John Conchie and everyone else that likes exhaust restriction. As a doctor, I would say "You are simply treating the symptom instead of solving the problem."


Start with a NA motor. You use valve overlap in order to help fill the cylinder with the fuel/air mixture. Let's say you've got the most kick *** set of cams and the way the opening and overlap of the valves coordinate - you have absolutely perfect filling of the cylinder. Now, is any unburned fuel/air exiting the exhaust valves in this situation. YOU FREAKING BET.
But, it doesn't really matter in terms of the combustion cycle of the engine. Yes, you're wasting some unburned fuel. But that better be the last thing you're worried about here. Now you put a header on your car and what happens. You waste even more fuel. Are you going to lose power. I doubt it.

When an engine is under boost, you don't need the VALVE overlap to promote cylinder filling. That is done by the boost. I understand that cylinder pressure leaks during overlap. I understand that this is not desireable.

Let me edit Ford's statement:
say you had 100% (of the 8PSI from the manifold) going into the combustion chamber, and 10% of that leaked out before the exhaust valve closed.. you end up with only 90% of the boost... that is a loss of 10% ...

Well, that is true and it is very sad that 10% of that potential fuel was simply wasted out of the back end. However, when you ignite that 90%, it is going to want to leave the engine in a hurry. And with a restrictive exhaust, that won't happen very well.

So, we want (as close to ) 8 PSI in the cylinder as possible. There are 3 options, in order of preference:
1) Get cams that don't overlap
2) Have the blower make 8.8 PSI. Yes, you will waste even more fuel, but the only concern is that you get the desired amount of fuel in the cylinder and that it exits the engine properly.
3) Make the exhaust restrictive enough that leaking during valve overlap is minimized. However, you burn all that fuel during the power stroke, the engine has to work harder to push out the exhaust (1) negating some of your gains, and (2) making the engine run hotter, thus increasing the chances of detonation.

Your method, you will notice, is on the bottom of the list.
Yes it works.
Yes you will have more boost/fuel to burn.
Yes that extra fuel that is being burned will make more power.
Yes that extra fuel will create more exhaust gas and heat.
BUT, thanks to that really nifty restriction plate in the exhaust . . .

It's nice that your friend has two blown big block engines. Does that help here. No, not really. I don't post here about my balanced, blueprinted and blown 502.

Okay. I'm not going to post/argue about this anymore.
I will continue to try to be helpful.

Ford - have you called Dave at RPW? He will custom grind - from a new billet - a supercharger spec intake cam. It's $525 AUD. I know the exchange rate sucks right now, but it's a thought. I don't think you need to do anything to the exhaust cam, since it is relatively agressive already.

[DubyaO]

I've only got three hours of sleep and just finished a Medical School final, so sorry if I'm a little crabby,


LOL...sorry, but that's just funny! :abovelol:

Finals + sleep deprivation + car talk =

[cclngthr]

Start with a NA motor. You use valve overlap in order to help fill the cylinder with the fuel/air mixture. Let's say you've got the most kick *** set of cams and the way the opening and overlap of the valves coordinate - you have absolutely perfect filling of the cylinder. Now, is any unburned fuel/air exiting the exhaust valves in this situation. YOU FREAKING BET.

However, it depends on how hot the gasses get and if the engine is able to keep the mix from exiting too fast once it starts to ignite. Keep in mind here we want torque and hp from the engine. Once that exhaust valve starts to open, we need to contain that gas in a way to get it to burn more than 90-95%.

When an engine is under boost, you don't need the VALVE overlap to promote cylinder filling. That is done by the boost. I understand that cylinder pressure leaks during overlap. I understand that this is not desireable.

Here, overlap is desirable to prevent the pressure in the cylindar from getting too high, which will crack the piston, block or have that gas forced past the rings. Quint (a NT.com member) has a Tib GT with a Alpine S/C equipped 2.7 V6, and he found a crack in the block because the pressure in the engine was too high. On our engine, which has a iron block, the weak point is the pistons and rings.

To offset the overlap, the desirable thing to do is add some restriction to the exhaust, just enough to slow things down to get the burn at 90-95%. However, this is very delicate because you will lose some ovelap effect, but it will be moving slower than if it was open.

It's nice that your friend has two blown big block engines. Does that help here. No, not really. I don't post here about my balanced, blueprinted and blown 502.

The same principal applies to the 4 cylindar engine as the larger engine. Only difference is with the V8, you have 2 4 cylindar banks to coordinate.

[tharptroy]

hey cc, I made you a new post so we wouldnt clutter ford's.

http://www.elantraxd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5738

my response to "reducing overlap could get cylinder pressure too high" would be to spin the blower slower if that was really an issue.

[FordFasteRR]

looky... i found a dyno of a jackson racing supercharger on a current model civic SI..

it made the same exact power as i did at 6500 rpms however since they rev up to over 7000 he peeked at 190 whp ..

damn :

http://www.k-series.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9604&highlight=jrsc

[BobMs_wht2k2]

You should feel real good ford, that was a si with exhaust and a bunch of mods done. And he is only pulling 190whp. What does the si stock make?

[FordFasteRR]

stock is like 160 whp or close to that... :)

[tharptroy]

ford, I think they're rated at 160 crank horsepower stock

[FordFasteRR]

well then 140 whp stock ? i guess...lol

[skycam]

if you look closely at the civic dyno it's making about 185 before that spike at the top end which I feel doesn't count.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

160HP 2.0 Liters
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Si

[2GTS]

That spike isn't what I would consider usable HP either. 185whp is a more accurate number to what you would see on the street imo.

[mrhoaf]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


Ford's gonna be picking off even SC'd SI's....... WHOO HOO!!!!!

[FordFasteRR]

i'll be starting my picking tonight.. i have a friend who consistently runs 14.4 in his NA I/H/E spec-v...

we'll see if i can lay waste to him or not.. :) HEHE

[skycam]

ford, make sure you do a couple of 40mph roll ons too.

[mrhoaf]

Good Luck!!! All of our hopes and dreams will be riding with you.......




you can blame the WEIGHT of our hopes and dreams if you're not fast enough.....LOL

[DubyaO]

I'm totally jealous. Kick their butts Ford!

[pjc6281]

Good luck ford, spec-v's are beasts

[NCspecV81]

that will be an interesting race! good luck and i told ya those spikes arent usable power...so realistically in the 180whp range!

itll be an interesting race...an i/h/e spec should be in the 165 to 170 range whp and around 175wtq...if its a properly maintained and non-oil burning version =o)


*edit* found a dyno for an 04 with i/h/e

http://members.cox.net/one_bad_spec-v/spec/dyno1.JPG

[OdessitPashka]

how did that race go man? Let us know.

[FordFasteRR]

my associate with the spec cancelled on me... we re-scheduled for saturday ...

:)

I'll keep everyone posted.

[pjc6281]

Yea i think he made a quick call to Nismo for some over nighted parts :)

[FordFasteRR]

Yea i think he made a quick call to Nismo for some over nighted parts :)


naaa... he's already got just about every known bolt-on there is for that car.. he runs low 14's as is ... very quick car + superb driver.

when he first got the car and it was bone stock, we raced and he easily beat me in the Xd, then I came out with my GK v6 6spd and raced him again.. i only managed to match him ... but i still could not beat him..

damn. I MUST HAVE MY REVENGE !

[CTele02]

Don't you mean GK?

[FordFasteRR]

Don't you mean GK?

oops.. thats what I meant.. lol

[CTele02]

and while we're on the topic of your GK, why do you like the XD more? I know the Beta can hold more boost and has more potential but it doesnt seem like you're going all out to 300hp...

[NorthernYankee]

Sleeper!

[slvrsleeper]

^^^^^^^^What he said^^^^^^^^Ford is the O.G. of the sleeper class of XD's around here. I have tried to follow his noble teachings in the build-up of my own car (less the blower of course)

[GLS2WRX]

congrats on your SC's XD Ford. Happy Hunting :2gunsfiri

[seraph0503]

^^^^^^^^What he said^^^^^^^^Ford is the O.G. of the sleeper class of XD's around here. I have tried to follow his noble teachings in the build-up of my own car (less the blower of course)

plus when all the tuners come at you with the "why didn't you get a tib, it's the best hyundai" questions you can make them sorry for asking.

[DubyaO]

OK...sorta OT on this...but asking anyway:

Ford, why did you (and/or others) not seeking to Turbo vs the SC? Seems like there's ricers out there w/ lots of power. Price seems to be close too. You like the steady torque/hp curves over Turbos?
:confused:

[tharptroy]

my reasoning for not wanting to go with a turbo is that there are alot more issues with making a "good" turbo setup. you have a whole lot of little components that need to be designed right to operate properly. and I assure you that almost any turbo system that you arent fabricating yourself will be an engineering nightmare for $3,000.

so basically, simplicity and reliability are the easist things for me to think of.

[mrhoaf]

BTW DubyaO, If you have a couple hours to read through the whole thread, Ford explains why he picked the SC over turbo.....

But basically it was for simplicity and reliability....

[ilanpro]

Ford I take it you did not make it to the track today?

[FordFasteRR]

Ford I take it you did not make it to the track today?

i decided not to go to the track until after i replace my elbow .. ( PS, already got the 3 inch ID rubber elbow & i'm gonna install it tomorrow AM) ..

after that, i'm gonna install the unichip and re-tune on the dyno..

THEN ! ... I shall go to the 1/4 mile to strut my stuff. :)

[ilanpro]

i decided not to go to the track until after i replace my elbow .. ( PS, already got the 3 inch ID rubber elbow & i'm gonna install it tomorrow AM) ..

after that, i'm gonna install the unichip and re-tune on the dyno..

THEN ! ... I shall go to the 1/4 mile to strut my stuff. :)


What do you think you are pulling??, compared to the GK, is the XD faster now? and how about gas consumption?

Thanks

[FordFasteRR]

i dont know for sure meng... its a whole new feeling that i'm not used to.. i suppose it will take me a few months of driving to re-learn the car ..

punching it hard in 1st gear makes it wheel hop and spin the tires like mad... basically makes it useless... but with practice, i'll learn to get it under control and make it work to my advantage :)

[oregun]

Hey Ford - what kind of tires are you using? I assume in FL you can get away with the sticky dry tires. Sigh . . . lucky basturd!

I'm sure the car fund is a bit tapped right now, but do you see an LSD in your future?

BTW. I am totally jealous of your S/C. I showed my wife your pictures and dyno a few minutes ago and she said, "What does that mean." After I expained how cool you were for getting the first S/C - she said that I wasn't allowed. Jeez, it's my birthday and everything :(

[KeWLKaT]

After I expained how cool you were for getting the first S/C - she said that I wasn't allowed.

poor you! i mean: ''khtsh!''

/offtopic

[OdessitPashka]

S/C works from the line, so you gonna have some problems being able to put the power down to the pavement at 1st :) You'll learn though :)

As for GKs, stock ones are in mid 15's or so, maybe closer to 16 second mark, and you were faster than that already, so with 40 more HP you will be either very close to 14's or in very low 15s, depending on your driving skills :)

[Pumbaa]

*drool* A little off topic, but I'm gonna dyno my car tomorrow, just got a KORE CAI and Catback. So I will have some #'s finally.

Good luck with the Unichip tomorrow Ford, can't wait for the new dyno tune #'s and some track #'s. Good luck against that Sentra also, 14.4 is quick! Thats Evo Territory.

[FordFasteRR]

finally, installed the new 3 inch rubber elbow ... looks good !

just went for a drive. .. holy crap... there is a very noticable difference.. and the boost guage reads a little more boost than before now.. I think that the restriction was much more than i predicted !! >>> I wish I could go back and dyno it again to see where i'm at !!! it feels like 5 or 10 more whp ... damn !!!

so here is $ 18 later and a little bit of trimming of the rubber...

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/p1010023.jpg

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/p1010024.jpg

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/p1010025.jpg

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/p1010026.jpg

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/p1010027.jpg

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/p1010028.jpg

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/p1010029.jpg

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/p1010030.jpg

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/p1010031.jpg

[slvrsleeper]

Ford I know you've heard this already but I'm gonna say it again. That is BAD ***! Jealousy overwhelms me, now I'm getting all choked up....Damn you! LOL Wish I lived a lot closer to you I wanna go for a ride.

[FordFasteRR]

Ford I know you've heard this already but I'm gonna say it again. That is BAD ***! Jealousy overwhelms me, now I'm getting all choked up....Damn you! LOL Wish I lived a lot closer to you I wanna go for a ride.

Thanks meng.

I just wish I had more $$ to go back and dyno some more !!!

[ilanpro]

Steve did you install the unichip yet??

[slvrsleeper]

The butt-calibrated, Civic Si ricer-boy dyno is free man! Go out there and play!

[tharptroy]

ford, did you measure the throttle body inlet size on the blower casing?

basically do you think its compatible with a 2.25" or 58mm throttle body, or is it stock sized.

[FordFasteRR]

ford, did you measure the throttle body inlet size on the blower casing?

basically do you think its compatible with a 2.25" or 58mm throttle body, or is it stock sized.

i did not.

but, that part can be removed and ported if necessary.

[OdessitPashka]

I'm sure you can ask us all for couple bucks and everyone will donate some money for you to go the dyno once it's done :)

[O_GT]

Thanks meng.

I just wish I had more $$ to go back and dyno some more !!!
If you lived here in o-town I could more than likely get a hookup on dyno and tuning.I know a few shops

[only1db]

definetly need top get that unicip in there!! there have to be a couple more ponies in there from the chip...that would be my guess anyway...considering it is matched the charger....good luck with everything!

[FordFasteRR]

I just wanted to give you guys an update ...

last week i noticed that back side of the blower belt was starting to wear out un-evenly on the inner side... the side of the belt facing the motor ...

so i got a flashlight and took a super careful look at the pulleys..

guess what ? turns out that one of the alpine idler pulleys was out of alignment.

luckily, that one has a washer between the pulley and the bracket.. so i simply removed the motor mount bolts, jacked up the engine a few inches, used my ratchet to remove the pulley ...

i located a washer that just happend to be 1 mm thinner and i swapped it out.. put the pulley back on and re-tensioned the belt... lowered the motor and re-inserted the motor mounts..

voila... alignment seems almost perfect now... i would have liked to use a 2mm thinner washer but I could not find one... at least now there does not seem to be such a squeeze with the belt agains the lip of the idler pulley..

i e-mailed alpine about this and requested a new belt to replace the original one.. lets see what they say ! hahaa



wish me luck ! :)

[ilanpro]

How is the gas consumption??, Have you raced anyone yet??

[FordFasteRR]

How is the gas consumption??, Have you raced anyone yet??

it drinks gas like a mother..

and I have not raced anyone yet ...




I'll keep everyone posted...

I have not installed the unichip yet either.... :)

[sed]

lol your 32mpg econo car just went to a v6 sports car in gas consumption lol

shawn :)

[Keyan]

The unichip will improve gas milage a little...won't it?

[cclngthr]

The gas consumption should not be that high. It will increase a little, but you should not see a huge difference. Maybe the unichip will solve this.

[NorthernYankee]

Well gas consumption will go up when that peddle is to the floor all the time:D

--NY

[DubyaO]

Hey Ford...what kinda battery are you using there? Never seen anything like that.

[dragonfighter60]

Hes using this http://www.elantraxd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4696

[techcontib]

Well gas consumption will go up when that peddle is to the floor all the time:D

--NY

I still get the same gas consumption if not better. But only on highway driving. In town its just too tempting to get on it from light to light. My city milage went down but highway went up. But Ford your running more boost so there might be a differance. Also Ford how nice is it on the highway to be able to pass someone in 5th gear with no problems? :D

[FordFasteRR]

........ Ford how nice is it on the highway to be able to pass someone in 5th gear with no problems? :D


its so sweet :) ! HAHAHA

__________________________________

well guys... here is the e-mail that I sent to alpine today... this is not inteded to sound mean, its just that I wanted them to understand how important this is to me... considering that i have basically beta tested their blower kit, made alterations for it to fit since it did not " bolt- up" as advertised... so far they have been very understanding, but I feel that it is fair that if I have a problem with it that they should look into it and take care of it for me FOC (free of charge) ..


and the e-mail goes like this:



This is steve arniella ...
PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE THIS E-MAIL.

I have a few concerns that I NEED YOU TO ADDRESS.

Problem #1.

The belt has become frayed on the back side towards the engine side.. this happened because of a washer that came with the lower side pulley that was 1 or 2 mm too thick.. the lip on the pulley rubbed the belt really bad and wore it out within only 50 miles of driving. .. i can now see the white furry stuff that is inside of the belt.. i think it will snap in a few days or maybe a week or less.

I HAVE FIXED THIS PROBLEM MYSELF by replacing the washer with a 2 mm thick unit and it seems to be perfectly good now... however I STILL NEED A NEW BELT.


Problem #2.

The belt that you supplied is 1/4 inch too long. to achieve proper tension on the belt, I had to turn the alternator tensioner bolt 98% of the way. I am basically left with only 2 turns on the screw for future re-tensioning and this is unacceptable.

think about it, 6 months from now, if the belt starts to slip, i'll have to re-tension it, and guess what ? after 2 turns on the tensioner screw it will BOTTOM OUT ! and i wont be able to get proper tension.

to solve this problem I propose 2 theories.

A. for my kit, i need a 1/4 to 1/2 inch shorter belt or a 1/4 inch bigger upper idler pulley.

B. for future kits that you sell to other beta2 cars you need to re-machine the bolt hole for the idler pulley so that it pulls the belt further in so that the stock tensioner will have plenty of future room for re-tensioning.


PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE THIS E-MAIL.

I need to hear from you guys soon and I need a 1/4 inch or at most a 1/2 inch shorter belt ASAP shipped to me this week PLEASE.

[slow 2K2GT]

sounds good to me Ford, im sure they are grateful for everything as you are able to inform them of design flaws so they can fix it ASAP!

[FordFasteRR]

sounds good to me Ford, im sure they are grateful for everything as you are able to inform them of design flaws so they can fix it ASAP!


this is true, however i dont want to sound like i'm taking all the credit for correcting some of the flaws in the kit... SED and my neighbor ELCOYOTE were there with me 100% of the time and they also came up with some good ideas during the install...


:)

[sed]

and it was a whole ***** of a lot of work too

but, i'm glad i could help

[slow 2K2GT]

Ok so dont pick the fly **** out of the pepper here, I was making a generalized statement. lol

[sed]

lol hey, I take credit when i can get it lol :)

[oregun]

Hey Sed-

If you want, I'll ask a bunch of "how does XXXXX work?" questions, and you can reply, ever so diligently, with your links.
Okay, here it goes:

I'm curious. This Alpine kit uses a roots style supercharger right? How does that work?

[slow 2K2GT]

Roots..think of tree, at the bottom...same as this blower it forces its boost out the bottom...I dont know im talking out my ***.

[joeypasta]

Ford,
Your letter sounded real good! I believe Alpine owes you a new belt as well as a huge debt of gratitude. Not only did you wait a long time to receive your product, but also you might have possibly saved a life; and help Alpine avoid a huge law suit if someone threw their belt while cruising on a busy highway. Also, by correcting their defects and informing them of them; you help preserve their name. Not everyone has your patience.

[sed]

paitence? you obviously don't know this man.

He was ready to pack it up and ship it back to alpine 35 seconds into the install because of the throttle body inlet.
If i wasn't there this install would have ended before it began lol

man, you don't know how hard i am laughing, ford has paitence LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

man i needed a good laugh thank you :)

shawn :)

[FordFasteRR]

the man speaks the truth... i had the wrench in my hand, ready to pull the blower off...

[cclngthr]

Sounds like some of my students...

They get in a tiff because something don't work easily. With something like this, nothing is every easy. I replaced my headlights at work today and my students were asking why I took the lens out. I simply said that managing that light and getting that clip in correctly is much easier if the lens is in a position where you can see it. Same thing for this blower.

I was also talking to a guy at a speed shop about the blower kit. He was telling me the numbers are respectable and he thought that redoing the belt and the unichip will get your readings very close to 200 whp if not over 200.

[FordFasteRR]

.......

I was also talking to a guy at a speed shop about the blower kit. He was telling me the numbers are respectable and he thought that redoing the belt and the unichip will get your readings very close to 200 whp if not over 200.

hmm...

That is wishful thinking..

I dont think that its over 180 whp @ this time... but, i'll be going back to the dyno at the end of this month at a different shop.. the reason for this is that they are having a dyno day for $ 40 with 3 pulls... and since i'm in a tight spot with $$ now then I might as well take them up on their offer ! with the unichip, i see a possible 10 whp more and thats it...

so i think i'll still be shy of the 200 whp mark.. lol

I'll keep you posted.

[DAILLESTWUN]

Ford took me for a ride last night.. Let me tell ya, it runs nice as fuk..lol I hate you Ford, yet I envy you..you're still my boy lol...

[FordFasteRR]

i raced the rsx tonight.. he beat my *** by 4 or 5 car lengths up to almost top of 4th gear..

he dynoes just over 197 whp NA with simple header / CAI / cat-back ...

he also happens to have springs, short shifter and some minor suspension mods ...

damn. ...

[ilanpro]

thats messed up man, do the unichip and see

[tharptroy]

shouldnt make that big of a difference with or without the unichip.

sounds like it was a pretty decent run...what does he run at the track?

[slow 2K2GT]

i raced the rsx tonight.. he beat my *** by 4 or 5 car lengths up to almost top of 4th gear..

he dynoes just over 197 whp NA with simple header / CAI / cat-back ...

he also happens to have springs, short shifter and some minor suspension mods ...

damn. ...

Wow that hurts man...honda guy continue laughing at hyundai owners :(

[pjc6281]

wow, he beat you by 4 car lengths? RSX's dont have alot of tourqe even with his mods the car still lacks. Dam, that pisses me off as well that you lost after this extensive upgrade. I hate to say it but ur buddy with the spec-v would probably edge you out as well. Those are tourqe monsters... We will all have to wait and prey for the unichip testing.

[O_GT]

i raced the rsx tonight.. he beat my *** by 4 or 5 car lengths up to almost top of 4th gear..

he dynoes just over 197 whp NA with simple header / CAI / cat-back ...

he also happens to have springs, short shifter and some minor suspension mods ...

damn. ...Well look at it this way you raced a car that weighs less, has more whp and has more gears to play with may also have better gearing for racing.I dont know how their gearing is set up

[FordFasteRR]

shouldnt make that big of a difference with or without the unichip.

sounds like it was a pretty decent run...what does he run at the track?


he has not been to the track with his current mods. His last time out he ran 15 flat with just a CAI... so with the headers / cat-back he should be a good 3 to 5 tenths faster.

I also raced a golf vr6 5spd with light weight mods and full exhaust and intake... he beat me by 1 1/2 to 2 car lengths all the way into top of 4th gear... his only run @ the track has been a 14.7 .

So I guess 6 psi is just barely enough to wake the beta 2 motor up.. I think I need an alcohol injection kit to lower the temps and get more power from the same boost level.. :)

LOL

[techcontib]

So I guess 6 psi is just barely enough to wake the beta 2 motor up.. I think I need an alcohol injection kit to lower the temps and get more power from the same boost level..

Now your talking.hehe

I hate to say it but ur buddy with the spec-v would probably edge you out as well.

Spec V's I eat for breakfast. Ford should be able to take them as well..

[DubyaO]

Ford, so are all these cars your racing equipped with an SC? Considering you've just started the "major" mods on your car, I think the car is performing well.

However, I would like to know how much boost you can go to *safely*...8-10 psi?

[FordFasteRR]

Ford, so are all these cars your racing equipped with an SC? Considering you've just started the "major" mods on your car, I think the car is performing well.

However, I would like to know how much boost you can go to *safely*...8-10 psi?


well, i'm not dissapointed, the rsx has 197+ whp ! i only dynoed 173 whp so that is 24 whp more !!

you cant just get next to a car that weighs less, has better gearing and 25+ whp more and expect to beat it easily !

I would say that i was a good race and I had tons of fun.

I know that with a little more work I'll have a better chance against him... and if I had my old school nitrous kit with the 90 shot I would have beat him quite easily.

:)

_________________________________
UPDATE :

Here are pictures of my spark plugs as of today ... I decided to pull them all out and put a fresh set in even though these are only 2 weeks old... I wanted to check the condition to see if i was too lean / rich or detonating..

from the looks of things, I am running perfectly clean !!!

YAY !!!!

56k DIE !

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/P1010037.JPG

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/P1010038.JPG

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/P1010039.JPG

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/P1010040.JPG

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/P1010042.JPG

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/P1010043.JPG

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/P1010044.JPG

http://nitrousworld.com/images/alpine_blower/P1010045.JPG

[dmdicks]

Those are some nice clean plugs. Throw some iridiums in and boost up!! :-)

[Pumbaa]

Those are the v-power plugs correct? Or am I just blind. They look very nice.

[FordFasteRR]

Those are the v-power plugs correct? Or am I just blind. They look very nice.

you are blind.

yes they are.

[cclngthr]

Those are clean plugs; however I do see a bit of junk on plugs 2 and 3 (at the tip). Fuel wise, I would leave things alone, but maybe a different heat range plug might get you different results.

[KeWLKaT]

isnt that normal plug wear?

[FordFasteRR]

they look SO GOOD compared to stock ...

I would say that the MSD is doing its job QUITE WELL ! HAHA

[OdessitPashka]

so, how is it going ford? any update?

[FordFasteRR]

so, how is it going ford? any update?

well i'm still using the oem ecu with only the fuel tuner for calibration...

i have not installed the unichip yet...

so far so good :)

[KeWLKaT]

go for it and queeze the extra juice out!




please :)