View Full Version : Beta2 Alpine Supercharger...
FordFasteRR
10-08-2004, 02:12 PM
I just ordered the newest blower from alpine.
It is the same blower kit as for the beta 1, but rather it has a totally re-designed manifold just for the beta2 map sensor based cars.
:)
they have completed the R&D for this kit and they have a total of 3 manifolds coming from the machine shop (CNC)... and they have to order the actual eaton blower with each order (10 day lead time)
So i pre-paid for the entire kit.. $2900 + 70 shipping, NO TAX ! :) (sorry TC, I would have ordered it from you but i was quoted 2950 + tax + shipping...)
They said it ships out to me in 2 weeks. and i'll have it by the last week in October. :)
The guy I spoke to for this order was Alistair (pronounced Alistar)... and he said the kit runs 8 psi stock and does not require any head spacer and does not include an intercooler.
however it does include the unichip & 5th injector setup + all misc parts required for installation.
I told him about my crank pulley and he said that I should take it off and put the stock pulley back on in order to spin the supercharger pulley fast enough to make 6 psi of boost...
So, if anyone wants my OBX crank pulley... let me know... I'll be pulling it out this weekend.
WISH ME LUCK !!!!!!!!!!!!!
NorthernYankee
10-08-2004, 02:15 PM
:eek: :bowdown:
Woohoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's about time someone did this. Now follow through with this plan Ford, I hope we don't see you pull out like on your turbo plan. I can't wait to see where you end up hp wise. The best part is your not too far from T.C. at Nextgen so if you want more power he should be able to lend a hand. It would be great to get T.C. working his magic on the I-4 Alpine SC like he has with the V6.
skycam
10-08-2004, 02:20 PM
ford, do you know where they are putting the 5th injector? is it being compressed through the supercharger? or is it after?
DAILLESTWUN
10-08-2004, 02:23 PM
Hey when you install it I want to be there to help...lol
GgellerGT
10-08-2004, 02:24 PM
What are the advantages of the OBX pulley?
Will it void Warranty?
Easy to install?
Price?
Mahonroy
10-08-2004, 02:37 PM
The OBX pulley... I thought that the pulley was lighter so it would spin faster with the upgraded pulley over the stock one? Or is the OBX pulley smaller in diameter than stock?
I sent a PM to you also ford...
only1db
10-08-2004, 03:06 PM
the obx is smaller in diameter....therefore it wont make the supercharger pulley move as fast...and therefore not enough spinning to create boost.....
ford you said they had three different manifolds....is one of them going to be intercooled?
FordFasteRR
10-08-2004, 03:07 PM
the problem with the OBX pulley and the blower is the DIAMETER of the pulley... its just a ratio problem... if you want to spin a pulley faster, then you have to increase the size of the main pulley and that will increase the rotational speed of the 2nd pulley...
so i'll have to go back to the stock pulley.
only1db
10-08-2004, 03:26 PM
what does the SC with the header spacer run? how much psi? but if i dont have to mess with taking the head off...this might be my option!
FordFasteRR
10-08-2004, 03:35 PM
The blower kit does not include (OR REQUIRE) the head spacer.
It is 100% bolt-on !!!!!!!!
no engine work is required.
NorthernYankee
10-08-2004, 03:38 PM
At 6psi how much WHP are we looking at with normal bolt ons i.e. Exhaust, intake...etc.
--NY
FordFasteRR
10-08-2004, 03:39 PM
i would say around 45-60 whp depending on the tuning ...
thats good enough to put me at 200 whp or close to that based on my current dyno / hp #'s.
dmdicks
10-08-2004, 04:09 PM
All I gotta say is...NICE!! I'm glad someone finally took a leap of faith!! :D
Guess
10-08-2004, 04:09 PM
oh hell ya ford can't wait to hear about it.
FordFasteRR
10-08-2004, 04:13 PM
hell yeah me too ! I cant wait to get it either... but dude... i have to wait 3 weeks ! ahaha they said it should arrive the last week of october ! OUCH ! hehehe
Guess
10-08-2004, 04:20 PM
I'm not sure I could wait that long would drive me nuts lol.
FordFasteRR
10-08-2004, 04:35 PM
I just got the invoice in the fax :) OHH YEAH !
hahahaa Order Confirmed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SWortham
10-08-2004, 04:39 PM
Awesome man... something tells me we're going to be seeing a lot of new G-Tech times. :D Maybe 0-60 in about 5.9 seconds? I guess we'll see.
jjos1
10-08-2004, 04:45 PM
will the smaller pulley next generation motorsports makes fit it, damn now I really wish I still had my 01 sucks for us 04 guys
hyunelan2
10-08-2004, 04:52 PM
Oh man! It's gonna be a long 3 weeks waiting for that thing to get in. Can't wait to hear about (and be jealous of) the results.
2004ElantraGLS
10-08-2004, 05:00 PM
Yeah, us '04 guys and gals need to wait another 2 years for any Turbo or SC kits.
Good on ya, Ford. Can't wait to see this coming together.
Axel
For more boost you can go two routes, smaller pulley on the SC but you are limited how small you can go based on the size of the shaft, or increase the size of the crank pulley. If the beta II kit uses the same blower as the delta V6 you could use the same parts for the blower but I really doubt you could use a Nextgen crank pulley from the V6 just like you can't use a underdrive pulley from the V6 on the I-4. What would be nice and look really pretty is if Ford had T.C. port and polish the blower and manifold. Like this, of course the manifold design would be different.
only1db
10-08-2004, 05:10 PM
now without low compresion pistons or a head spacer the beta is good up to about 10 pounds of boost right???
the pulley should work....aslong as the bolt is the same...trying to fit a different pulley on a different engine is a little trickier! :eek:
Ford i cant wait!! you will have to keep us all update :D
anybody know if its going to be CARB certified??? that would pretty much seal the deal for my wife!
FordFasteRR
10-08-2004, 05:13 PM
porting the manifild runner ports on the I4 alpine kit may yield slightly more lag before the onset of boost... remember, if you have more space to fill, then it will take longer to fill it...
the only way to overcome that is to get different pulleys but I really dont want to bother messing with the kit at first........
I think i'm just going to follow their instructions and install it as is... Then i'll go from there......
If i was to change the pulleys, the unichip will need to be re-tuned.. and that presents another problem. They designed and tested this kit specifically for the map based beta 2.. It might yield more power than their older kits did... who knows.
:)
only1db
10-08-2004, 05:18 PM
one could only hope!
SuperGLS
10-08-2004, 05:41 PM
Sounds good. I'm with 2GTS, I'll be sad if this plan isn't finished.
FordFasteRR
10-08-2004, 05:43 PM
I have seen an alpine kit on the v6 tib up close .... and that thing is so sweet !!!!!!!
I'm really glad that i went with a known and reputable company that stands behind their products. :)
.
cclngthr
10-08-2004, 05:44 PM
Keep me informed about the install and drivability issues. I plan on getting one eventually.
FordFasteRR
10-08-2004, 06:12 PM
here is a pic of what it would look like on a map based RD tiburon from europe, its b asically the same as the beta2 except for the IAC valve and the there is a special elbow that holds the 5th injector that comes with the kit that (this RD tib) does not have becaue it uses a fuel pressure riser to add fuel since it has the pre-historic return fuel system from the factory....
http://www.hyundaicoupe.info/pix/mine/mine215.jpg
and the pic came from this site: http://www.hyundaicoupe.info
:)
cclngthr
10-08-2004, 06:52 PM
I wonder if the returnless fuel system makes it easier. Are you planning on adding a SAFC and larger injectors or just going to add the 5th injector?
skycam
10-08-2004, 07:23 PM
where is this 5th injector mounted? before or after the supercharger?
only1db
10-08-2004, 07:39 PM
thats xorro's car...she is over on the RD boards and the HP boards...she has had that for a long time! ....she has like a lot of work into it and she is barely pushing 195 whp...i dont know something seems wrong with that....i hope the new design is more efficient.....she has almost every engine mod :eek:
azwildfire
10-08-2004, 07:46 PM
Yeah, us '04 guys and gals need to wait another 2 years for any Turbo or SC kits.
Good on ya, Ford. Can't wait to see this coming together.
Axel
here are some CVVT with turbo kits.
oh wait, do i have a kit that is being installed saturday? and do i have an 04? oh wait, i think i do! :P
turbo kits, as for SC kits, who the heck wants to put an SC on a 4 cyl car?
http://www.azwildfire.com/hyundai/red.jpg http://www.azwildfire.com/hyundai/black.jpg
and here is a post with dyno numbers http://www.newtiburon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20439
FordFasteRR
10-08-2004, 08:04 PM
both of the cars pictured there are MAP based euro spec beta2's..
also, they are both tiburons.....
and the first pic is an AUTO ! LOL but the 2nd is a 5spd....
They look really cool though :)
.
only1db
10-08-2004, 08:07 PM
instant torque....easy installation....just to name a couple
good luck...from what i have read...people in Korea have had to disable the cvvt
FordFasteRR
10-08-2004, 08:09 PM
boost is boost... as far as i'm concerned, as long as I can make 45-50 more whp then i'll have a super sleeper in this town....
:)
.
azwildfire
10-08-2004, 08:18 PM
what you read was wrong, the above tiburons didnt disable CVVT (i emailed em and asked)
over 15 PSI they do it to increase performance, not because they have to
2004ElantraGLS
10-08-2004, 08:30 PM
both of the cars pictured there are MAP based euro spec beta2's..
also, they are both tiburons.....
and the first pic is an AUTO ! LOL but the 2nd is a 5spd....
They look really cool though :)
.
Agreed...I don't see a MAF sensor...unless they converted theirs to MAP. The last I heard, GUDE was developing a Turbo kit for the CVVT, but they were still having a lot of CEL issues, along with other errors. Problem is, the '04 ECU is so strongly programmed for Emisions and Fuel Mileage, any little mod gives the ECU a ****in migrane. :( Oh well, like I said, in a few years, more things will become available for the CVVT motor....like Turbos, SCs, and ECU reprogramming.
Axel
cclngthr
10-08-2004, 09:46 PM
Agreed...I don't see a MAF sensor...unless they converted theirs to MAP. The last I heard, GUDE was developing a Turbo kit for the CVVT, but they were still having a lot of CEL issues, along with other errors. Problem is, the '04 ECU is so strongly programmed for Emisions and Fuel Mileage, any little mod gives the ECU a ****in migrane. :( Oh well, like I said, in a few years, more things will become available for the CVVT motor....like Turbos, SCs, and ECU reprogramming.
Axel
I thought Ford said they are European spec RD's, which will be different than the US spec versions (I just fixed a Canadian '85 Buick Skylark that would not run with a US spec distributor and coil).
Even the 01-03 beta 2 engine is heavily programmed for emissions, which is going to be evident in all cars because it won't be long before the emission standard will be similar as California's new regulations. We now have 2 cats on the XD and the engine is classified as ULEV and SULEV (ultra low emission vehicle). On a Honda, the ecu does not have all of the emission control system built in or controlled by the ecu. It is able to run dirty (this might change due to the emission regulations in place). Of course, this makes tuning harder, but look at the history of emission standards. Car makers in the 70's had to figure out how to get the engine running clean, and sure, performance dropped, but over the years they did increase the performance while adhering to the emission standards.
2004ElantraGLS
10-08-2004, 09:54 PM
Again, I agree. It's not like I said that our cars would never be able to use aftermarket performance upgrades. All I'm saying is that it's gonna take a while for things to become available, and for ECU programming to be figured out.
Axel
2XDreme
10-08-2004, 10:36 PM
I'll be interested to hear the virtues of this mod
Keep us all posted Ford :thumbsup:
only1db
10-08-2004, 10:50 PM
yeah i think we should keep this on topic....
fords new badass supercharger!!!
from what i got off that site....she is only running 4-6 pounds of boost...now if the new unit runs 6 pounds of boost from the get go....we should be able to pump out more!.....hopefully there wont be too much aggrivation with the tuning of the unichip
slow 2K2GT
10-11-2004, 12:00 PM
After reading over this whole thread, because well im stuck between convenience of a SC but I like the power of a TC. I went back to the Alpine site and did the math for power yeilds on the TC kit, it works out to 231WHP. And from reading about dmdicks Alpine kit he dynoed at 243WHP, not a huge difference but 12HP is still more than any N/A mod for our car yeilds (but perhaps he has an exhaust which is the only N/A mod [not the only but we drive Hyundais so there isnt a huge cashflow] that is salvageable with the TC). Now on to the SC, the math comes out to 213WHP, so lets consider for a second that...
1: those numbers are from bone stock (ie no header, exhaust, flywheel)
2: There is an obvious elevation difference which can put power output
either +/- from that chart.
So from there we know that with the SC our header is going to be utilized, and probably more efficiently than without FI, just need to solve the downpipe problem. Damn you SSauto!!! So I have rambled on long enough, we are not going to see HUGE gains from our vehicles, but still 200WHP is impressive all things considered.
FORD WILL DYNO...and if we want results that bad than im sure we can chip in $5 so he doesnt do it alone...I know we did this before with Evil247.
only1db
10-11-2004, 01:47 PM
5 bucks seems like a reasonable cost for a reliable source of information....
yeah you might have more power but it will all be up top....the SC will pretty much give you all that torque starting at like 1500 so your 0-60 tims will be faster then with a turbo because of the lag...and yeah 200 whp is nothing to laugh at
FordFasteRR
10-11-2004, 02:15 PM
dont worry, i can afford the dyno runs ! LOL
:)
th003g
10-11-2004, 02:17 PM
my turn to chime in....
1. the #'s on alpine's website dont add up... converting the s/c charts 159kw gives 213... yes... but converting the baseline 117kw gives a result of 156.8 wheel horesepower.... anyone have 156.8 wheel horesepower on a standard beta?
1.5. Looking at hp.com store... they quote baseline wheel hp to be 102... sounds right considering a 25 percent loss of power through the drivetrain....they quote s/c'd output to be 140 whp....more within the realm of reality....
2. Going with #'s achieved by techontib from rdtiburon.com he got "163+ wheel horsepower from the s/c kit and a Random CAI at 4 psi".....
3. The old kit started at 4 psi with a spacer to lower compression.... the new beta2 kit starts at 6 psi without a lowered compression....which makes me think... did alpine do further testing with the beta2 and determine it safe to get rid of the spacer and still up the baseline boost? I sure hope so cause that would mean more hp (theoretically) from the kit as is.....
all that said.... I'm gonna be watching very closely and if all goes well... there will be a s/c'd auto GT in NY soon....preferably by end of november....
only1db
10-11-2004, 02:32 PM
you can boost both the beta I and the beta II safely upto about 10 psi without engine mods....so yeah there is no need for the head spacer....213 should be about right considering there is no spacer and its upped to 6 psi...oh and don forget you can also get a new pulley for the SC and that will up boost nicely!
FordFasteRR
10-11-2004, 02:36 PM
I spoke directly with alpine, and they said that running the TURBO without a head spacer is not good and can harm the engine prematurely... I figure that they did lots of calculations to come up with that theory and go as far as developing the spacer plate...
also, they did tell me that the unichip is tuned specifically to work with the lower compression and that if you installed the turbo kit without it that the tuning will be off.
hmm....
as far as the S/C is concerned... i would like to see at least 180 whp ...
Lets see what happens when we get there.
. :phone:
only1db
10-11-2004, 03:48 PM
you should get that from the a stock car....you already have mods you will be up in the high 190 if not over 200
FordFasteRR
10-11-2004, 04:16 PM
i have already dynoed my car... it put down 136.6 whp ...
:)
also, based on my g-tech calculations... i am doing 155 HP @ the engine.
cclngthr
10-11-2004, 05:19 PM
With the S/C, you should be getting 220-250 at the engine.
You should consider lowering your compression ratio. 10:1 is a bit high for a boosted motor.
slow 2K2GT
10-11-2004, 06:48 PM
Lowering compression would be a good thing, if the piggy back system that comes with the kit will allow it...oh my bad I just checked and it does allow for it, though it should be done right with good pistons and not with a head spacer.
From Alpine site...
"All Power outputs shown were recorded on ALPINE DEVELOPMENTS rolling
road dynamometer in Kwa Zulu Natal, South Africa, using
South African vehicles (No smog devices) with 97 octane fuel.
All power and torque figures quoted are flywheel recorded."
Ford come through for us with some solid figures...
FordFasteRR
10-11-2004, 07:29 PM
With the S/C, you should be getting 220-250 at the engine.
You should consider lowering your compression ratio. 10:1 is a bit high for a boosted motor.
6 psi (if that) is hardly enough boost to require lowering the compression....
I would say that doing something like that is overkill for a low boost s/c setup like this alpine kit...
either way, only time will tell if its reliable or not.
______________________________________________
I would like to add some information that might help you to understand why this non intercooled blower was successfully designed and sold for a bunch of years now.. and has since been known to work perfectly...
This alpine blower uses a 5th injector setup.
What he hell does that have to do with it you ask?
well, the answer is simple. The fuel being sprayed into the boosted air path acts as a coolant which absorbs a portion of the heat generated by the blower. as a result, you drastically lower intake charge temps and simultaneously add the required enrichment to compensate for the extra oxygen...
does that make sense ??? I would say that the closest example is a water injection system.... when you use such a system all that you are doing is adding a liquid that absorbs the heat of the compression process and lowers intake charge temps which keeps the detonation away and keeps your motor alive.
:)
2004ElantraGLS
10-11-2004, 08:00 PM
Can Nitrous be used to cool down the intake air charge in a boosted setup?
cclngthr
10-11-2004, 08:32 PM
Nos might create detonation, as it ignites easier than pump gas if you are trying to cool off the intake mixture.
I have installed blowers on several vehicles and find the boosted engine, even at 4-5 psi can detonate easier under stock compression; which is why I prefer to go overkill on the internals of an engine under these circumstances. My 68 truck has a 572 boosted big block in the engine bay and it is running at 6 psi with an 8:1 CR. If I was running a CR at 9.5:1, it would ping like crazy at full throttle even on high test gas. I can run regular fuel with it now without any pinging or detonation or much loss of power. If I were to boost the psi over 15, then it will detonate even at 8:1.
slow 2K2GT
10-11-2004, 09:21 PM
6 PSI you say...I know that you can adjust boost on a TC, but the only way with the SC is to get a smaller pulley on the blower right? Huh, at 6 PSI power yeilds come out to around 129HP (min) or 192HP (max), these numbers come from an equation from maximum boost, so there is room for error to some degree. Doesnt seem worth it, we can all speculate about this, but we will have numbers soon enough...God this is like watching and waiting for water to boil.
FordFasteRR
10-12-2004, 10:11 AM
Can Nitrous be used to cool down the intake air charge in a boosted setup?
it is possible, but you will need a very stout engine to handle that kind of load on the internals...
also, my point for going with FI is to stop wasting money on nitrous refills .lol
:)
.........even at 4-5 psi can detonate easier under stock compression; which is why I prefer to go overkill on the internals.......
This may be the case in the engines you worked with, but have you worked with a map based beta2 engine ?
People have been boosting these motors with little to no instances of failure for years and years.. apparently, the static compression of 10.x might not be such a big deal in relation to boost/detonation since the engine only outputs like 135 hp stock...
there are engines out there with less compression that output more power with even less displacement... so my theory is that this engine is massively de-tuned or just not deisgned for power.. and the stock ecu tuning is a testament to that idea considering that it runs perfectly even with the crappiest gas you can dump in it...
and lastly... dont forget what i said earlier about the 5th injector acting as an intercooling agent... + high octane gas (that i will be using by the time the blower comes in) will also work to reduce/eliminate detonation + the tuning of the unichip is most likely set richer than required to help reduce the chance of detonation even further !
:)
tharptroy
10-12-2004, 11:21 AM
nitrous is a bad idea to throw in the mix to cool intake charge. alcohol or methanol is better.
static compression ratios are great fun, but the pinging of your 572 at low boost likely has alot more to do with poorly designed combustion chambers or poor tuning or both.
a modern 4 valve head (even as crappy as a hyundai) is a huge improvement in efficiency over the average 572. what numbers are you laying down? (before and after blower?)
with something like a 572 with a blower, I dont think you'll ever be wanting for more low end, so hacking the compression way down is a simple solution.
cclngthr
10-12-2004, 11:29 AM
I have a spare beta 2 engine that I am currently tinkering with, so I do know at least something about it.
A 10:1 CR is in relation to a stock motor and how much power it is putting out at a stock level. When you begin to modify the engine for power, you need to think about if the stock compression is at a level where the risk of bending a rod or blowing a hole in a piston is possible. When you add boost, you are increasing the risk of doing damage to the internals. On the Beta 2 I have, I am putting forged low CR pistons and rods in it (it ran when I got it, but I'm going through it anyway). Having a 5th injector adds the needed fuel, but also can heat up if you are not careful with it. The combustion chamber needs to be at a specific temperature to make power and still run right. Too hot or cold temperatures makes an inefficient burn.
Hyundai programmed the engine for clean emissions rather than a lot of power. As designed, it is a good car as a regular vehicle. Clean emissions also relates to poor power output because the fuel/air mixture and timing is set so the engine will burn the mix cleanly. If you want more power, the exhaust gets a bit dirtier.
FordFasteRR
10-12-2004, 12:23 PM
.......The combustion chamber needs to be at a specific temperature to make power and still run right. Too hot or cold temperatures makes an inefficient burn.
...........
Agreed, I just wanted to make sure that you are not confusing my theory on intake charge cooling with combustion chamber temps...
What i mean by intake charge cooling is the effect that the incoming 5th injector mist has on the temperature of the air being compressed by the blower itself, not to be confused with the combustion temps...
sure, if the combustion temps get out of hand, you will melt a piston or a valve or a ring, and if you ping too much you can break a rod or melt more stuff...
but I dont see how the combustion temps will get so hot that it will melt anything as long as you have the right amount of fuel coming into the engine to prevent a lean condition or detonation...
:)
cclngthr
10-12-2004, 05:39 PM
However the 5th injector mist as a cooling agent can only go so far, and there is a possibility of it igniting in the right conditions.
As you pressurize the intake system, that pressure does increase the heat, which can cause a lean mixture and detonation problems right before the sparkplug fires. If the pressure is too high because of a high compression ratio, the combination of the high pressure and increased heat can ignite the mix prematurely, blowing out the piston and breaking a rod is very likely because the piston has enough momentum from the crank turning in 1 direction, and when 1 piston tried to get the crank to go in the opposite direction because the mix ignited prematurely in that cylindar and is trying to force the piston down, instead of letting it finish going up, then down.
The same principle applies to the beta 2 engine as a huge V8. They both operate in the same way. My 572 (which originally had 650 hp at the crank) engine is similar to the smaller beta 2 I'm tinkering with.
only1db
10-12-2004, 06:08 PM
you can run up to 10 psi in the stock compresion!! there is no need for a head spacer or anything else with just 6psi....the stock internals are just fine!....i dont think that you will have to worry about lean conditions because the unichip is already programmed just plug and play!....this is not like a turbo setup where you will have to go to the dyno and tune your engine management system....just plug it in...thats it.
ford i cant wait unitl you install this and we get real numbers!
slow 2K2GT
10-12-2004, 06:32 PM
Until that time all we can do is speculate about the final products wortiness.
FordFasteRR
10-12-2004, 10:45 PM
Until that time all we can do is speculate about the final products wortiness.
agreed...
I just hope this doesnt turn out like the kspec intake ordeal.........
i know what is good and what is crap........ only time will tell..
.
cclngthr
10-12-2004, 11:04 PM
Building a boosted engine is easier said than done. A lot goes into the makings of one. Getting 1 component wrong can destroy the whole engine.
I tend to be leery of a plug and play kit. Sure, it may work, but I do think other components are necessary to keep the engine running for a lifetime.
only1db
10-13-2004, 12:03 AM
agreed...but for initial start....its good to go...later on you will want to upgrade but for now it will do the trick with on probs...and if there are some...ford will work them out!
FordFasteRR
10-13-2004, 08:45 AM
agreed...but for initial start....its good to go...later on you will want to upgrade but for now it will do the trick with on probs...and if there are some...ford will work them out!
good point...
I just hope that this kit is already just plug and play...
I want to get the install completely done in just 1 day....
:)
only1db
10-13-2004, 10:53 AM
you've got skills...make it happen!!
slow 2K2GT
10-13-2004, 12:29 PM
im sure its doable in one day, my pulley install only took me 45 minutes and taking off my IM was like 1 hour. That still leaves you 22 hours, im sure the little stuff wont take that long.
FordFasteRR
10-13-2004, 02:22 PM
I guess the trickiest part will be getting the unichip installed... I have no idea how involved that will be...
:)
only1db
10-13-2004, 02:34 PM
isnt it just a peice that you plug directly into the computer and the computer harness plugs into the unichip? thats what a piggy back is so i guess that would be my assumption :D
dmdicks
10-13-2004, 04:05 PM
The Unichip install really isn't bad at all. Its a little harder than a S-AFC install. You can either install it next to the ECU or install it in the engine compartment. With soldering its probably about a 25-30 min job max.
FordFasteRR
10-13-2004, 04:34 PM
awesome !
Thanks for the info... also DM.. if you have any pics or other info that could help me get the unichip installed / working then please let me know... THanks :)
.
tharptroy
10-13-2004, 10:55 PM
"The same principle applies to the beta 2 engine as a huge V8. They both operate in the same way. My 572 (which originally had 650 hp at the crank) engine is similar to the smaller beta 2 I'm tinkering with."
I just think you may be suprised at the subtle differences that go a long way in increasing an engine's ability to stop detonation from ever occuring.
with proper attention to detail you can run full timing, 10:1 compression and 12psi on a roots blower (on pump gas). without detonation. (4valve/cyl honda head)
9.5:1 may have been all your combustion chambers could stand, and the boost was just enough to push it over the edge.
since its a positive displacement supercharger, there really wouldnt be much of a downside to decreasing compression though.
I think with the engine's mild tune, you wont have any problems with the alpine unit. (if you're running 93 octane)
and edit: ford, badass for getting one of those! im going to try to see what I can do NA (it'll probably cost me the same as a blower kit though)
FordFasteRR
10-13-2004, 11:50 PM
well, good luck with the na tuning...
the problem we have is that the motor has a bad rod/stroke ratio and you cant do the ONE THING that will help make real power.. ie .. at least 100 hp per liter...
and what is that one thing ?
Rev high.
tharptroy
10-14-2004, 06:59 AM
when you're right, you're right ford. I'll be happy to see 160whp when im done. this guy really impressed me with what he could do with a prelude motor that revved to 7750. so I figured it was time to fork over some cash. ive got a spare car to sell, and a loan that needs to be payed back to me, and a pretty decent sum in my paypal account, so it looks like this is finally becoming a real possibility.
FordFasteRR
10-14-2004, 08:44 AM
well, if you want to spend all that money for 160 hp... you shouldnt have to... my engine hp is 150 to 155 based on the dyno chart & 0-60 measurements...
So, just getting a custom tuned exhaust or perhaps a light weight flywheel and you will already make 160 hp.
lol just not at the wheels.
dmdicks
10-14-2004, 09:28 AM
awesome !
Thanks for the info... also DM.. if you have any pics or other info that could help me get the unichip installed / working then please let me know... THanks :)
.
Hmm, I have a crappy Unichip wiring diagram I could send you, also I mapped all the pinouts and what they do for the BetaII Tiburon ECU. Not sure if they Elantra and Tibby use the same ECU though. You can hit me up on MSN IM at davemdickson@hotmail.com if you want.
FordFasteRR
10-14-2004, 09:36 AM
thanks DM, if its not too much trouble, you can upload the pics to my webserver and share them on here ?
if not, let me know.... :)
tharptroy
10-14-2004, 11:00 AM
I think the pricetag to "work" the top end would come out to about $3500. thats just headwork, custom header and ported manifold. I would have to buy cam gears on top of that and proabbly bigger injectors.
do you know if the 01-02 head will bolt to an 03 block?
slow 2K2GT
10-14-2004, 11:27 AM
send your head away to Gude, they have a head package for like $1400.
FordFasteRR
10-14-2004, 11:59 AM
I think the pricetag to "work" the top end would come out to about $3500. thats just headwork, custom header and ported manifold. I would have to buy cam gears on top of that and proabbly bigger injectors.
do you know if the 01-02 head will bolt to an 03 block?
yes, 01-03 should all interchange, the only problem you might have is if you have one of the late model 03's that have the cvvt head on them...
the block should remain the same from what i've seen... :)
tharptroy
10-14-2004, 01:05 PM
I'll have gude port my head when my brains have all fallen out (hahah, bad joke)
This guy does A class work and he doesnt mess around. he has been porting heads for 30 years, and is working on the engines for fords re-entry into pro stock.
he does 4 cyl heads to various levels of performance from $800-2,000 plus parts.
I think gudes bogus dyno chart history is a testament to just how poorly they perform, along with honda guys who have bought gude headwork and saw little to no improvement over stock.
ford, I bought my 03 in may or thereabouts, so I figure im okay with a head transplant if what you say is correct.
FordFasteRR
10-14-2004, 01:25 PM
....
ford, I bought my 03 in may or thereabouts, so I figure im okay with a head transplant if what you say is correct.
take a picture of your engine bay with the big plastic cover removed...
i'll tell you which one you have / need .
only1db
10-15-2004, 03:21 PM
does the original number seem a little low?? here are numbers that i got from alpine today
Hi,
We have a supercharger kit for the 2.0 03 Elantra. The motor is not decompressed.
Price is USD $2900 + shipping
Power is increased from 102wHP to 160wHP
Regards
John Conchie
S.A. Alpine Developments, Inc.
7581 Acacia Avenue
Garden Grove, Ca. 92841
Ph. (714) 379-8066
Fx. (714) 379-8166
www.alpine-developments.co.za
if not it seems like this new manifold does a much better job then the previous one...
FordFasteRR
10-15-2004, 03:32 PM
i want to know what the hell kind of elantra they tested that only dynoed 102 whp.. i think his #'s are backwards and it should be more like 120 whp to 160 whp...
:)
NorthernYankee
10-15-2004, 03:51 PM
Well if you account for a 25% drivetrain loss.
135 HP = 101.25 wHP (Updated HP rating)
and
140 HP = 105 wHP (original 2001 Elantra HP Rating)
I think that is how they got the numbers.
--NY
FordFasteRR
10-15-2004, 03:51 PM
_________________________
UPDATE:
Did you all know that the alpine beta2 blower kit includes a BOV ! ??
:) It does.. lol its on the back of the manifold.... shweet !!!!!!!!
I wonder if its plumbed to vent the boost to atmosphere hmm... looks like i'll have to find out if it can be modified to vent...
PTTTSSSSSSSSSSS !!!!!!!!
th003g
10-15-2004, 04:02 PM
considering a bone stock starting figure of 135hp at the crank which is what the elantra Beta2 is rated... 102 would be about a 25% loss in the drivetrain which is on the high side but still conceivable...considering the general inefficiency of hyundai' designs as compared to other companies...
i've been reading up on the Ion red line ecotec engine which dyno'd at 197whp with the s/c and intercooler at 12.5psi its also a 2.0 (destroked 2.2).... 197whp with a roots type s/c at 12.5psi...decompressed to 9.5:1 from 10.0:1 or something like that
so think about it... a roots type s/c on a 2.0/2.2 at 9.5:1 compression dyno-ing 197hp at the wheels with 12.5psi rev limited to 6450rpm with a nice 'free flowing" intake and exaust...
alpine's kit is only 6psi so 160whp is very much a reasonable output.....
i think the bov /bypass valve is there to let the system work more efficienlty when we let off throttle to reduce the parasitic loss during the time you're coasting....
damn it took me hella long to research this post.... in that time 3 more posts came up heheh
dmdicks
10-15-2004, 04:40 PM
the 5th injector is before the blower to help promote atomization. Also you can always do some nice water injector and bump the boost up and still be perfectly safe. With the right hardware and software you should be able to get to a reliable 200WHP w/o too much of a problem..
only1db
10-15-2004, 05:03 PM
thats what we wanted to hear...i'm sure ford will be able to do it!
Elantra2.001
10-15-2004, 05:35 PM
The safest way to do water injection is using an old Delphi fuel injection setup with the Eprom chips that you can program or have programed.
only1db
10-15-2004, 07:28 PM
water injection...into the intake pipe? somebody explain that one please
oregun
10-15-2004, 09:59 PM
I think the pricetag to "work" the top end would come out to about $3500. thats just headwork, custom header and ported manifold. I would have to buy cam gears on top of that and proabbly bigger injectors.
do you know if the 01-02 head will bolt to an 03 block?
FYI: $4310.00 AUD - excluding freight and RPW will send you a
DTB intake manifold w/ two 58 MM TB's
Billet Intake Camshaft (stage 1 or 2, your choice)
Ceramic Coated Race Headers - Includes a ceramic coated flex pipe
Port and Polished Head to RPW stage 2
I'm leary about doing direct buisness with the because they won't take credit card. I think it's $1000 AUD less w/o the DTB, then we can slap that Alpine unit on instead.
water injection...into the intake pipe? somebody explain that one please
Water can absorb a lot of heat/energy. It prevents detonation by making the fuel/air mixture harder to light (which makes sense, right- ever try to light a campfire when it's raining). Anyhow, the fuel/air will ignite when the sparkplug fires - no matter what. The trick with boost is to prevent the fuel/air mixture from igniting by itself (at the wrong time) which it really wants to do from the heat and pressure inside the cylinder during the compresson stroke of the piston.
Ask anyone with a boosted car - they'll tell you that it sure runs well on a cool humid day, or through fog.
FordFasteRR
10-15-2004, 11:07 PM
I think that some day, when i'm ready for the power... i'll get myself a built bottom end.. stock compression level.. get myself a set of bigger injectors, add a fuel controller.. and then slap on 100 horsies of nitrous... that'll really put this car into the 12's if anything... and it'll idle like stock LOL
who knows... maybe i'll get trigger happy and add an alpine turbo kit instead... then i'll be dual boosting myself to sleep with some crazy rice dreams ! LOL
:)
maybe in like 3 or 4 years....
tharptroy
10-15-2004, 11:47 PM
hey ford, I attatched a nice big pic of my engine bay.
and by the way, I think that the dual TB setup is junk, maybe something to try if you dont care about losing money though.
oregun, if you've got money to burn, and plenty of it, I'd check out endyn (www.theoldone.com). Ive been shamelessly plugging those guys, though I doubt they've heard anything from an elantra owner besides me. I'll probably be buying some endyn goodies by febuary or so.
oregun
10-16-2004, 01:27 AM
Oh, I have no intention of getting the DTB.
The Headwork, Headers, and Cam are of interest. Ideally, they would work with the S/C kit.
Of note. If the kit provides 6lb of boost in its stock form- you will actually get less boost if you have a header. On the dyno the HP ratings will still be higher with the header/lower boost, but I'm not sure what happens to torque.
However, this is a totally legit reason to crank up the boost. Woo Hoo
tharptroy
10-16-2004, 03:48 PM
from what I understand, optimal performance will only be acheived when parts are specifically matched to the application.
EGT04
10-16-2004, 10:53 PM
I was wondering while reading this thread... what is the difference between whp and hp???
Keyan
10-16-2004, 10:55 PM
HP is horsepower...how much the engine generates.
WHP is wheel horsepower...how much horsepower is actually put down to the wheels.
Or atleast that's how I understand it.
oregun
10-17-2004, 01:46 AM
When you buy a car and it is advertised, say, at 140 HP. That is the power that the engine is capable of making.
Now, you put that engine in a car and:
1) Hook up a transmission filled with gears that spin and thick oil
2) Axels from the transmission have to "twist" the weight of the tire and wheel.
During the process of transmitting engine power to the road, there is loss due to friction, etc... So of the 140 HP that your engine makes, you typically loose about 15% on the way to the wheels. What is left over can be calculated on a dynometer and is termed "Wheel Horse Power" (WHP). This is power available to accelerate your car.
From a performance standpoint, WHP is what really matters. Factors that affect the power lost in the drive line include auto vs. stick transmission, all wheel drive, Wheel diameter, wheel/tire weight.
FordFasteRR
10-17-2004, 09:37 AM
hey ford, I attatched a nice big pic of my engine bay.........
You have the late model 03 XD with the CVVT head (cvvt disabled & no solenoid installed)
so, if you want to keep your valve cover, you will have to find a new head (more expensive and harder to find), BUT ... if you can find a head with its own valve cover, then I dont see why you cant swap it out completely :)
only1db
10-17-2004, 10:26 AM
how can you tell if its a cvvt head?
FordFasteRR
10-17-2004, 02:07 PM
how can you tell if its a cvvt head?
I can tell because the cvvt head has a different valve cover than the non cvvt head ...
i circled the part that gives it away...
http://www.nitrousworld.com/pictures/bay_cvvt_head.JPG
only1db
10-17-2004, 03:10 PM
gotcha thanks...
tharptroy
10-17-2004, 05:58 PM
hrmm, I have an entire spare longblock, so I have the right valve cover for a head swap....
I wonder if there's much of a difference as far as potential between the heads. I guess stock for stock the dyno plots are about the same, so my guess would be no
FordFasteRR
10-17-2004, 06:56 PM
this is wayy of topic, but if i had a spare cyl head... I would spend some time on the webbing between the two intake valves... I would knife edge it so that the injector spray pattern is not interrupted so bluntly by the casting...
like in this pic .. you see the stock beta head.. you can see that the webbing between each valve is quite thick, i would say almost 1/4 inch... i would shave that down and knife edge it and then polish the rest if it... no real porting is necessary since the head ports are already HUGE compared to the gasket / intake manifold... I really dont know if there would be any benefit to porting the head any more on the intake side....
http://www.nitrousworld.com/ffpictures/ported_im/jim_ford_im_porting_swap%20010.jpg
EGT04
10-18-2004, 02:05 AM
HP is horsepower...how much the engine generates.
WHP is wheel horsepower...how much horsepower is actually put down to the wheels.
Or atleast that's how I understand it.
ic... thanks, I'm curious now. What's the max HP that elantra can produce?
FordFasteRR
10-18-2004, 08:17 AM
ic... thanks, I'm curious now. What's the max HP that elantra can produce?
lol
that question has a simple answer... MONEY !!!!!!!! :abovelol:
ilanpro
10-18-2004, 09:01 AM
here is the vvt head
http://www.nitrousworld.com/pictures/P1010184.JPG
http://www.nitrousworld.com/pictures/P1010176.JPG
http://www.nitrousworld.com/pictures/P1010178.JPG
FordFasteRR
10-18-2004, 09:13 AM
mind you, the late model 2003 xd's with the cvvt head DO NOT HAVE the cvvt solenoid as pictured above...
Elantra2.001
10-18-2004, 10:51 AM
I agree with FORD on the intake side, there is really not much to be done with the exception of that little tab. The exhaust side on the other hand could use a lot of help.
ilanpro
10-18-2004, 10:56 AM
I agree with FORD on the intake side, there is really not much to be done with the exception of that little tab. The exhaust side on the other hand could use a lot of help.
I remmember you mention that at the meeting
azwildfire
10-18-2004, 12:14 PM
mind you, the late model 2003 xd's with the cvvt head DO NOT HAVE the cvvt solenoid as pictured above...
according to http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/iindex.asp?id=394887699&modelyr=2003&modelid=5&enginemotormmc=0&pre=0&reviewed=1#_394887699 Ford, they do
the diffrence is, CVVT is only on the "california spec emission" elantra's AND I4 tiburons in 2003.
FordFasteRR
10-18-2004, 01:37 PM
according to http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/iindex.asp?id=394887699&modelyr=2003&modelid=5&enginemotormmc=0&pre=0&reviewed=1#_394887699 Ford, they do
the diffrence is, CVVT is only on the "california spec emission" elantra's AND I4 tiburons in 2003.
hmm.. are you saying that the late model 2003 elantra has the cvvt solenoid ?
if so, where is it in this picture?
http://www.nitrousworld.com/pictures/bay_cvvt_head.JPG
as you (cant) see, the late model 03 head does not have the cvvt solenoid...
here is a pic of an 04 with the solenoid in place, its the gold colored round tube thingie with the harness on it..
http://www.nitrousworld.com/pictures/P1010176.JPG
......
i'll tell you what bothers me the most about this cvvt thing... I dont know why hyundai waited this long to put out this technology... trust me, this is NOT new technology in any way... I remember my first car, a 1994 nissan sentra 1.6L twin cam with cvvt ... it had the exact same technology in it and that came out in 1991 on those model sentras... sheesh.
tharptroy
10-18-2004, 01:51 PM
ford, I think some of the california cars got cvvt in 03.
thats just what I recall to be the case, I havent done any research on the matter, so it might be wrong
oregun
10-18-2004, 02:55 PM
Hey Ford! When is this darn thing showing up. I've been waiting forever. Would you mind calling Alpine and getting an update :)
Seriously, this is killing me. Aren't you going crazy?
FordFasteRR
10-18-2004, 03:13 PM
Hey Ford! When is this darn thing showing up. I've been waiting forever. Would you mind calling Alpine and getting an update :)
Seriously, this is killing me. Aren't you going crazy?
I dont really want to call them, they already told me it will be here the last week of october.
The Cali cars did have CVVT before it was released to the rest of the country.
FordFasteRR
10-18-2004, 06:10 PM
hmm.. i wonder if they got the maf system too ? hmm...
if anyone has an 03 XD with the cvvt system, lets hear a roll call and get some pics going !
only1db
10-19-2004, 01:29 PM
i know i have the cvvt head but its disabled and i have a MAP sensor...i dont think that any of the 03 actually have a MAF with the cvvt...only the head that is disabled
FordFasteRR
10-19-2004, 02:17 PM
well, just having the cvvt head does not mean the cvvt is simply disabled... as a matter of fact, there may very well be a different set of camshafts inside of the real cvvt engine that has additional hardware to support the cvvt functionality... also, the cvvt head as a hole tapped on it for the cvvt solenoid, AND the ecu has the special harness + programming to control the cvvt operation... the 03 that is simply "disabled" does not have any of those things........... so you cant just "activate" it and have cvvt... so the term "disabled" is very VERY misleading... :) I hope this helps to clarify it.
only1db
10-19-2004, 03:25 PM
ah rhetoric....LOL...
DocRxGLS
10-24-2004, 06:02 PM
Ford,
I was wondering, is this newer kit carb certified? I know the other one was not, at least the one HP is selling. Odd, both V6 kits are, but not the one for the beta 2. Just wondering. Anyway, I'm getting really stoked for ya.
th003g
10-24-2004, 07:01 PM
not carb'd... prob not going to be...
Mahonroy
10-24-2004, 11:03 PM
I don't understand what would make it not carb'ed certified... I meen as long as you have your exhaust still running through catalytic converters then you should pass emissions testing right?
only1db
10-24-2004, 11:05 PM
should...but it has to go through the state of california first...and then it will get at CARB certified # that you have to present to whomever is doing the inspection...so you will pass...but people know people ...so its not really as big of a deal as they make it....
th003g
10-25-2004, 04:14 AM
whcih brings me to my next question... if you live in NY or any CARB state and you need service from a shop will they work on your car if they see its not carb Legal? hehehe or do I have to go through my "hookup" to get my car fixed if I have issues...(I know people.. just not near where I live)
BlackElantraGT
10-25-2004, 05:39 AM
What kind of servicing are you talking about? For general service most places would do the work but if you're talking about getting a smog check, you need to go through your "hookup"
hmm.. are you saying that the late model 2003 elantra has the cvvt solenoid ?
if so, where is it in this picture?
http://www.nitrousworld.com/pictures/bay_cvvt_head.JPG
as you (cant) see, the late model 03 head does not have the cvvt solenoid...
here is a pic of an 04 with the solenoid in place, its the gold colored round tube thingie with the harness on it..
http://www.nitrousworld.com/pictures/P1010176.JPG
......
i'll tell you what bothers me the most about this cvvt thing... I dont know why hyundai waited this long to put out this technology... trust me, this is NOT new technology in any way... I remember my first car, a 1994 nissan sentra 1.6L twin cam with cvvt ... it had the exact same technology in it and that came out in 1991 on those model sentras... sheesh.
I think you must be confusing cvvt with something else because I also had a 1992 Nissan Sentra XE (GA16DE) and it definitely did not have any variable valve timing system in it. For Hyundai, cvvt is a very new technology that obviously is starting to pop up in their cars.
The first production car to have this technology was the 1991 Honda/Acura NSX. They called their system VTEC, which later was put to use in most of their models. Nissan later experimented with it in 1994 and called their system VVL, but that was only available on the Japanese spec SR20DE engines, codenamed SR20VE. Eventually other automakers began using this technology, all with different names. Hyundai now calls it CVVT, Honda calls it VTEC-i, Toyota is VVT-i, etc.
So technically this technology is only a little over 10 years old and Hyundai is finally playing catch up. Although it might put a damper to those looking to modify their engines, eventually someone will find a way around it.
jjos1
10-25-2004, 09:06 AM
I want this for my car..... but I'll wait for it to be tested on an 04 first
FordFasteRR
10-25-2004, 10:17 AM
...I think you must be confusing cvvt with something else because I also had a 1992 Nissan Sentra XE (GA16DE) and it definitely did not have any variable valve timing system in it. .........
well, apparently you have not done your research, but all ga16de engines came with nissans variabale cam timing system.
look it up in the chiltons manual and you will see it.
the solenoid is on the back of the cylinder head on the passenger side.
As a matter of fact, I have the solenoid from a spare ga16de engine that i rebuilt once... i might take a pic of it for you some day... :)
(here is a link to a site that points out that VTC system and how the JWT ecu can be modded to change the cam advance and such..
http://www.sentra.net/tech/garage/engine.php
)
only1db
10-25-2004, 01:17 PM
um....honda had vtec on their preludes in the late 80's! the 2.0 si or atleast i think
BlackElantraGT
10-25-2004, 04:06 PM
well, apparently you have not done your research, but all ga16de engines came with nissans variabale cam timing system.
look it up in the chiltons manual and you will see it.
the solenoid is on the back of the cylinder head on the passenger side.
As a matter of fact, I have the solenoid from a spare ga16de engine that i rebuilt once... i might take a pic of it for you some day... :)
(here is a link to a site that points out that VTC system and how the JWT ecu can be modded to change the cam advance and such..
http://www.sentra.net/tech/garage/engine.php
)
That article only mentioned advancing or retarding your timing only, which can be done on most cars. Part of every major tune up involves adjusting your idle and timing back to factory specs. That's not the same as VTEC or CVVT.
Here's an article on VTEC and it's variations from SCC magazine.
http://www.mr2sc.com/websites/articles/vvt.htm
um....honda had vtec on their preludes in the late 80's! the 2.0 si or atleast i think
Here's the history on the Prelude and it's engines
http://hondaprelude.sitemynet.com/hs.html
FordFasteRR
10-25-2004, 04:26 PM
dude.. the ga16de has a vtc solenoid and it does hydraulically adjust cam timing (exactly how the hyundai cvvt system works) and once you do some research you will see that this is the case.
Unless you can disproove my statements... you can count on it that I am right.
___________________________________
Also, I just got off the phone with John from Alpine developments.. I confirmed with him that this blower setup runs at 8 psi out of the box.
He also suggested that I set my cam sprocket to +4 degrees advanced in order to help with cylinder filling and it will actually increase the boost pressure even more.
He also pointed out that it is advisable to have at lest 17 inch backpressure on the exhaust system to maintain the proper boost levels otherwise I will have slightly less fuel economy at low rpms and slightly less power........
SO, what I'll do is try the blower with the cam timing set where it is now (-12 degress crank) and with the straight through exhaust as it is now..
then I will try it with zero degree setting on the cam sprocket, then with +4 ...
if that 0 or +4 shows a significant gain, then I will swap to a multi-chamber high flow muffler and go from there...
:) OHH YEAH !!!!!!!
BlackElantraGT
10-25-2004, 04:47 PM
dude.. the ga16de has a vtc solenoid and it does hydraulically adjust cam timing (exactly how the hyundai cvvt system works) and once you do some research you will see that this is the case.
Unless you can disproove my statements... you can count on it that I am right.
I know that you're a lot more knowledgable than I am when it comes to the mechanics of cars, but I've owned a Sentra for many years and have followed Sentra.net and SER.net for years and I've never heard of a B13 Sentra having any sort of variable valve timing. The article I showed you from SCC even says that Nissan didn't experiment with it until 94 and those engines never made it here to the U.S.
The only thing you've pointed us to so far is Mike Kojima's article on advancing your timing and using higher octane gas, which is not the same as variable valve timing.
NorthernYankee
10-25-2004, 05:02 PM
Ok lets put this to rest so we can get back to discussing the soon to be installed SC.
The GA16DE that comes as standard equipment on '91 to '99 Sentras and 200SXs was not designed for performance like its big brother, the well-known SR20DE. The GA's role in life was to be clean-burning, smooth, quiet and to provide excellent fuel economy. At these chores, it excels, providing excellent mileage and worry-free reliability. With its VTC variable intake cam timing system, it is also relatively peppy. The quick nature of the engine was apparent when we took it to the local drag strip, as the spunky little car seemed to hold its own against other competitors in its class. The only other stock subcompacts that could spank Project 200SX 1.6 were its bigger SE-R brother and the powerful Civic Si.
From this article http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/0102scc_proj200sx/
So Ford was right and we can all sleep well at night.
--NY
BlackElantraGT
10-25-2004, 05:25 PM
My apologies Ford, I guess you are right according to that Project 200sx article. I wonder why Nissan never really advertised their "VTC" system like honda did with the VTEC. Are these 2 seperate technology? Because I know that with VTEC, it kicks in at a certain RPM whereas I never felt anything kick in with my Sentra.
BlackElantraGT---> :bowdown: :imnotwort :cool: <--- FordFasteRR
My apologies Ford, I guess you are right according to that Project 200sx article. I wonder why Nissan never really advertised their "VTC" system like honda did with the VTEC. Are these 2 seperate technology? Because I know that with VTEC, it kicks in at a certain RPM whereas I never felt anything kick in with my Sentra.
BlackElantraGT---> :bowdown: :imnotwort :cool: <--- FordFasteRR
Vtec and real variable valve timing are two different things. Vtec like you mentioned switches between two different sets of cam lobes at a preset rpm. One set of lobes generally provides better low end tourqe and better gas milage and the other is set up for high rpm power. VVT or whatever the particular manufacturer calls it changes the valve timing continuosly regardless of rpm to acheive best emission and milage. VVT is generally not a performance thing where Vtec is.
SWortham
10-25-2004, 06:07 PM
... and to further complicate things, nowadays Honda has iVTEC which involves variable control of valve timing and lift and has more performance benefits than the old VTEC technology which was not variable.
FordFasteRR
10-25-2004, 07:44 PM
Thanks, I knew I wasnt talking out of my a$$ there bro... i personally have owned the ga16de engine and as i mentioned earlier I actually have one of the vct solenoids here at my house as a suvenier since many MANY people did not believe that the 1991 and up ga16de motors ALL had the vtc system in them....
anyhow...
It looks like my blower wont ship for at least another few days which means I wont get it until next week..
the delay is as follows:
Intake manifolds are to come in from the cnc shop tomorrow, they are to be test-fit one final time to ensure exact fitment on a test XD that they have in their factory.
They already have the 4th gen superchargers in stock and waiting to ship with my kit...
The system will include a unichip that blows through the blower from the TB down into the twin roots screws and cools the hot charge similar to a water injection system... that is how the motor can withstand 8psi + boost without an intercooler...
basically the injection system will act as an intercooler but its not quite as efficient.
:)
8 psi here I come !
The system will include a unichip that blows through the blower from the TB down into the twin roots screws and cools the hot charge similar to a water injection system... that is how the motor can withstand 8psi + boost without an intercooler...
basically the injection system will act as an intercooler but its not quite as efficient.
:)
8 psi here I come !
You kind of lost me there, you're talking about a 5th injector mounted before the blower being controled by the unichip right?
FordFasteRR
10-26-2004, 08:31 AM
yes.
.
dmdicks
10-26-2004, 08:33 AM
Yup, that's how the Alpine kit adds the additional fuel needed. Slap in some 290cc Sonata injectors and boost to 10psi!! Add a real water/methanol injection system and boost to 12psi and above!!
FordFasteRR
10-26-2004, 08:41 AM
how can I get more boost without installing a smaller blower pulley ?
I think i want to run it stock before trying to over-spin it... :)
DM, did you fix those problems you were having ?
IM me.. fordfaster
:) :phone:
only1db
10-26-2004, 09:21 PM
up boost without a smaller pulley...um...you would have to shave the gasket or put in new pistons...
10 psi is max without adding a head spacer or redoing the internals....8 psi will give you a pretty good number! cant wait!
evil247
10-27-2004, 03:34 AM
Blah blah blah SLOW!!!! j/k (not really) until you take it to the track!!!! Uhm there's a Tib in Tampa that wants to race you. Not calling you out or anything but come on Lab you gotta to be willing to give a SC motor a run.
FordFasteRR
10-27-2004, 08:38 AM
Blah blah blah SLOW!!!! j/k (not really) until you take it to the track!!!! Uhm there's a Tib in Tampa that wants to race you. Not calling you out or anything but come on Lab you gotta to be willing to give a SC motor a run.
I havent heard from him lately... no updated pics or anything... I wonder how he's doing with his kit...
either way, i'll race him any day !!!!!!!
ilanpro
10-27-2004, 09:31 AM
He is waiting for the cookie jar to fill up with $$ to buy a clutch :D
He already has the clutch installed.
FordFasteRR
10-27-2004, 11:53 AM
yeah, he installed the exact same clutch that I have.
:)
It is an AIMCO 6 puck clutch... stage 3.
its a good clutch for the price... But i managed to make it slip NA ! LOL
ohh well, we'll see how well it holds up with 8 psi .... :)
only1db
10-27-2004, 01:25 PM
no fear in racing..you lose you lose! ....but ford has his **** together and can make that car do some crazy things! i just want to know how the install and what kind of numbers you get!
FordFasteRR
10-27-2004, 01:57 PM
i plan to take it to the dyno after the install is complete, maybe a few weeks after the install..
also, I plan to take it out for lots of gtech runs and MAYBE... JUST MAYBE i'll go to the track...
:)
DAILLESTWUN
10-27-2004, 05:56 PM
I can't wait lol.....
Tricked
10-30-2004, 11:46 AM
yeah, he installed the exact same clutch that I have.
:)
It is an AIMCO 6 puck clutch... stage 3.
its a good clutch for the price... But i managed to make it slip NA ! LOL
ohh well, we'll see how well it holds up with 8 psi .... :)
A couple weeks ago, Lab's clutch was holding up with 8.5 psi. That was right after install, too.
WetWilly
10-30-2004, 06:22 PM
FYI - didn't see this posted here, but saw this interesting bit in Autoweek a couple of weeks ago when they reviewed the Kia Spectra5:
Also tried in preliminary form was a supercharger installation by South Africa’s Alpine. Using a Detroit-made Eaton blower running at 7 psi, it boosted power to approximately 200. Sweet. If Kia okays that for production, and maybe massages the shifter, its little hatchback could well turn some youthful heads
Link: http://autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=100942
only1db
10-31-2004, 09:56 AM
alpine was supposed (i believe) the supplier for the HARD products...but we have been hearing alot of about HARD but nothing has come out....
FordFasteRR
11-01-2004, 12:26 PM
I just got off the phone with Alpine..
they told me that the blower is still being test fitted and that they will ship it out this week..
so i'm looking at next week for delivery :(
damn.
____________
This is not really a surprise for me... When I first called Next Gen motorsports to inquire about this blower, he told me that Alpine was still working on the manifold development and that there was at least 2 more weeks of lead time..
elantragt4dr
11-01-2004, 01:52 PM
oh! oh ! the run around is starting, hopefully they dont have ties with KORE
FordFasteRR
11-01-2004, 02:46 PM
oh! oh ! the run around is starting, hopefully they dont have ties with KORE
I dont think so...
Remember this is the company that makes the blowers for the v6 ... they have made and sold hundreds of these kits all over the world... this is not a 2nd grade shop that makes things in their back yard...
this is full cnc manufacturing & r&d testing & dyno tuning of their products... a 100% complete package...
So If i have to wait a month, so be it.
I'd rather wait and let Alpine test fit it and get it right, it's no good getting a blower and then not being able to install because something doesn't line up because they rushed it out the door to deliver on time.
ilanpro
11-01-2004, 06:26 PM
How much was it ford?? Nevermind I saw it
Now this wont work on the 04 I guess
FordFasteRR
11-01-2004, 08:20 PM
I'm not really in a rush... even if it takes another month.. its worth it.
:)
remember, the blower they use is an OEM quality blower made in detroit.. that thing is factory on tons of US cars !!! the blower is known to last over 100k miles on factory cars...
OdessitPashka
11-02-2004, 12:24 AM
how much longer man?
FordFasteRR
11-02-2004, 08:43 AM
They told me it should ship out this week... They told me that they have 100% of the parts in stock now and that they are only finishing the final test-fitting of the machined parts before they pack it for me...
:)
OdessitPashka
11-02-2004, 09:44 AM
good. I'm really excited about this whole thing!
only1db
11-03-2004, 12:50 PM
cant wait! .....so what...is this the first working prototype?? for the beta II with the new manifold? if so...we should see some nicer numbers then the previous SC
FordFasteRR
11-03-2004, 01:49 PM
well, from what i've calculated... it should be very very close to 200 whp.
and that estimate is for a completely stock Xd..
since i'm using a short ram and a full exhaust.. it will increase the volumetric efficiency a little and yield a few more poines...
also, I plan to add a water injection system in the future, that will definately put it at OR over 200 whp... :)
here is a basic calculation of power increase vs boost with a supercharger..
divide the total horsepower that you want to make by the stock horsepower of the engine..
say I want to make 200 hp .. and my stock engine makes 135 hp.. then the result is 200 / 135 = 1.48
then your differential is .48 above 1 atmosphere...
now, multiply .48 x i atmosphere which is 14.7 psi and that is how much boost you need to make 200 hp.. .48 x 14.7 = 7.0 psi..
the problem with this equation is that it does not compensate for the heat that is generated by the supercharging process...
what you can do to figure the heat is really complicated, but you can rough it by adding .20 to the original calculation... so if we do the calculation again... we have .20 + .48 = .68
so .68 x 14.7 = 9.96 psi of boost.
as you can see, you need almost 10 psi of boost to reach 200 hp...
if the alpine kit is only boosting 8 psi.. I will be short of my goal by about 10-20 hp. this can be counteracted by adding water injection to lower the heat differential which in turn will bring that power back up to 200 or possibly more.
NorthernYankee
11-03-2004, 02:05 PM
1 Question for the calculation you are using a base of 135 and a goal of 200...which is HP and WHP...wouldn't you need to use the same rating to make that formula work?
like say base of 110WHP and a goal of 200WHP?
I may be way off base though.
--NY
DAILLESTWUN
11-03-2004, 06:00 PM
They told me it should ship out this week... They told me that they have 100% of the parts in stock now and that they are only finishing the final test-fitting of the machined parts before they pack it for me...
:)
I'm getting goose bumps!!!! I want to be present there for as much of the installation and test drives as possible....he he :halm:
FordFasteRR
11-03-2004, 06:03 PM
1 Question for the calculation you are using a base of 135 and a goal of 200...which is HP and WHP...wouldn't you need to use the same rating to make that formula work?
like say base of 110WHP and a goal of 200WHP?
I may be way off base though.
--NY
all of the calculation is engine HP....
slow 2K2GT
11-03-2004, 06:07 PM
I imagine ford will keep us all updated on his process. I personally think he should take a few sick days and just hammer away at the install once the package arrives.
FordFasteRR
11-03-2004, 06:10 PM
I imagine ford will keep us all updated on his process. I personally think he should take a few sick days and just hammer away at the install once the package arrives.
I'm considering that !
:)
NorthernYankee
11-03-2004, 07:07 PM
all of the calculation is engine HP....
My bad I thought that you were trying to do the calculations for 200WHP.
--NY
FordFasteRR
11-03-2004, 07:20 PM
My bad I thought that you were trying to do the calculations for 200WHP.
--NY
in order to calculate for whp you have to add 15% increase in engine hp and re-calculate.
lets do it here: 225 engine HP is equal to 200 whp..
so, 225 / 135 = 1.66
.66 + .20 (for heat factor) = .86
.86 x 14.7 = 12.64 PSI of boost.
so for 200 whp you need almost 13 psi of boost :)
this is NON intercooled boost from a blower. :)
Therefore... 200whp isn't possible on a "stock" elantra 03 running at only 8psi of boost?
hyunelan2
11-04-2004, 01:24 PM
With those calculations, no... it doesn't look like it. If you eliminated the heat factor, you'd still need 9.7 psi (if my math wasn't too fuzzy) to get to 200.
slow 2K2GT
11-04-2004, 02:09 PM
Well that sucks then. I was really hoping for some good yeilds with this, though its only math now. Lets wait and see, I hope it is near the 200WHP mark
FordFasteRR
11-04-2004, 02:11 PM
well, the #'s are bad for a 100% bone stock elantra..
but I have slightly higher volumetric efficiency as per my dyno numbers I am making 155 engine HP .. therefore I expect to be closer to 200 whp ...
:)
Also, I have the OBX adjustable cam sprocket so I can tune the cams to close earlier and hold more boost..
so a setup that would add 8 psi to an otherwise stock engine might add 10 psi with the cams slightly advanced.. and that will help to make slightly more power. :)
slow 2K2GT
11-04-2004, 02:15 PM
is there a pulley upgrade kit for the blower? Im sure this has been asked already. Still working with the numbers that were posted above things seem a little bleak. I hope that my flywheel will yeild a few more ponies, seems our cars could use em.
FordFasteRR
11-04-2004, 02:20 PM
well, one thing that I would like to add is that this new blower has a slightlyhigher efficiency ratio than the older blowers..
just based on that fact, it might produce more power due to less heat production.
Only the dyno will tell the truth, alpine says they got close very good #'s on it compared to the old beta1 setup....
:)
slow 2K2GT
11-04-2004, 02:48 PM
Like I and everyone else have been saying, time will tell
Elantra2.001
11-04-2004, 03:16 PM
Ford, when did you go to the dyno?
FordFasteRR
11-04-2004, 04:35 PM
last year.
UPDATE:
http://www.nitrousworld.com/images/dynorun3.JPG
only1db
11-05-2004, 01:40 PM
did you get it yet??? when did they say that it would be to you?
FordFasteRR
11-05-2004, 01:53 PM
its not ready yet, another week at least.
remember, this is the first production blower for the beta 2 that they are shipping out... they have to be sure that the machine work and fitment is perfect...
:)
only1db
11-05-2004, 02:01 PM
ic....cant wait....should be really nice!
Gman01
11-05-2004, 09:09 PM
cant wait to see the finish product
FordFasteRR
11-08-2004, 04:27 PM
I just spoke to Alpine..
They gave me an update on my blower..
They had a 3mm offset problem on the manifold bolts so they had to re-machine them for proper fitment..
I also got more details on the horsepower output that they got from their dyno testing.. it runs out that they got 160 whp on a certain type dyno that typically reads much lower than regular dynos...
John said that this same setup would yield about 220 engine hp.. and that on a regular dyno it would register over 180 whp..
Anyhow.. all of this sounds really nice but I will dyno it myself and I will run it at the drag strip also..
one way to guarantee your horsepower output is to run the car in the 1/4 mile and weigh it the same day of the race... then using the 1/4 mile and weight numbers you can calculate the horsepower output... :)
SO thats what I'm gonna do once its installed :)
slow 2K2GT
11-08-2004, 04:54 PM
one good thing about SC is that you can install some badass cams. There is no need to worry about a clean spool so fire away.
only1db
11-08-2004, 06:26 PM
not too radical though....dont you still have to worry about overlaps??
ford...only the track will tell!!
slow 2K2GT
11-08-2004, 06:55 PM
not too radical though....dont you still have to worry about overlaps??
ford...only the track will tell!!
I wouldnt imagine any more than 272 degree intake/exhaust. or the exhaust cam from the 1.8L Beta...I think thats the one.
FordFasteRR
11-08-2004, 07:56 PM
actually, blowers work best with either stock na cams or turbo cams...
the difference being that turbo cams are setup to have the exhaust valve close earlier and have reduced overlap .... this helps in filling the cylinders with more boost ! :)
techcontib
11-09-2004, 05:42 AM
I just spoke to Alpine..
They gave me an update on my blower..
They had a 3mm offset problem on the manifold bolts so they had to re-machine them for proper fitment..
I also got more details on the horsepower output that they got from their dyno testing.. it runs out that they got 160 whp on a certain type dyno that typically reads much lower than regular dynos...
John said that this same setup would yield about 220 engine hp.. and that on a regular dyno it would register over 180 whp..
Anyhow.. all of this sounds really nice but I will dyno it myself and I will run it at the drag strip also..
one way to guarantee your horsepower output is to run the car in the 1/4 mile and weigh it the same day of the race... then using the 1/4 mile and weight numbers you can calculate the horsepower output... :)
SO thats what I'm gonna do once its installed :)
There using a Dyno Pack(bolts right up to the hubs) same one they dynoed tuned mine with. I think you will be making more than 160whp cause I made 163whp on that dyno with just random cai and custom exhuast and 4.5 psi. Plus your car yeilded more stock hp than mine did. I think thats where John is basing his numbers off of cause its best to quote lower hp than inflated hp.
FordFasteRR
11-09-2004, 08:07 AM
well If i can manage more than 160 whp then great.. also, what car did they boost for you ? and using what boost method ?
ilanpro
11-09-2004, 10:28 AM
:( So there is no way to get 200hp with this??
FordFasteRR
11-09-2004, 10:59 AM
:( So there is no way to get 200hp with this??
well, so far, everything indicates that 200 engine hp is possible... maybe even more..
but whp is a little less....
:) alpine told me that it registered 160 whp on their dyno, but that is typically lower than dynojet or mustang dynos by 20 + / - hp so depending on how you look at it... it most likely makes 200 + engine hp or there abouts.
if you do not take the heat expansion into account... a totally stock XD should make 200 hp with just 7 psi of boost...
now, add heat expansion and you need a little more boost .. closer to 10 psi to make 200 hp..
in my case, I have a free flowing exhaust + a short ram intake... that will increase the VE of the engine and so it should make slightly more power with the same amount of boost...
Havro
11-09-2004, 11:00 AM
is that 180whp number they are getting from a totaly stock xd???
how well would this kit work on an automatic xd?
FordFasteRR
11-09-2004, 11:06 AM
I think that the blower kit works on either the auto or stick...
as far as how well... it should be the same :)
techcontib
11-09-2004, 12:08 PM
well If i can manage more than 160 whp then great.. also, what car did they boost for you ? and using what boost method ?
Heres my little burro.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/305000-305999/305770_13_full.jpg
I am hoping yoou get more. Cause if so then I will keep my kit and keep modding it.lol You will like 2nd and 3rd gear trust me. I can't abuse 1st too much cause on stock clutch. If you call John he knows me, Name is Heath. He spent alot of time tuning mine. ALOT.lol
FordFasteRR
11-09-2004, 12:54 PM
holy crap that is so awesome !
do you have more pics ? close-ups and others ?
Do you have 1/4 mile times yet ? or outside dyno #'s besides at Alpines dyno ?
also, if i may ask.. why did he have to spend " ALOT " of time tuning it ? I thought the RD blower kit was a done deal even years ago ? Is it because of a newly designed blower unit ?
Phiber
11-09-2004, 01:33 PM
Three grand, huh? What are the intercooler possibilities? The way that thing is mounted in the tib it does not look promising. :(
FordFasteRR
11-09-2004, 03:11 PM
there is no intercooler available for this setup..
the kit uses a custom made manifold, the blower mounts directly to the manifold... it has an adapter for the stock TB on it too :)
only1db
11-09-2004, 03:34 PM
i'm sure there is a way to manufacture an intercooler...but nobody has done it yet...i'm sure you could wrap the intake manifold with aluminum and cool it down alittle...that would give a little more ponies
FordFasteRR
11-09-2004, 03:39 PM
i'm sure there is a way to manufacture an intercooler...but nobody has done it yet...i'm sure you could wrap the intake manifold with aluminum and cool it down alittle...that would give a little more ponies
well, it sounds like it would, but the only way to effectively cool the air charge is to force the boosted air through a radiator core...
so simply running water over the outside of the manifold will have little or almost no measurable effect on it... i figure if you were to cool the manifold to ICE COLD FREEZING temperatures that you might be able to lower the inner air temperatures down a few degreez but that will be really expensive vs performance increase..
as you know they sell water / alcohol injection kits on ebay for $175 and they are very effective... that sprays the water or alcohol directly into the blower just like the 5th injector does and absorbs some of the compression heat... that is good for like 10 hp or so :)
only1db
11-09-2004, 03:42 PM
ic.....i will have to look at that than....doesnt the h2o affect the combustion?
FordFasteRR
11-09-2004, 03:45 PM
ic.....i will have to look at that than....doesnt the h2o affect the combustion?
not really, it atomizes into just oxygen due to the heat of compression.
Elantra2.001
11-09-2004, 04:09 PM
water in the combustion chamber usually doesnt separate into hydrogen and oxygen but becomes very hot steam as its a strong bond. The it does help in is by atomizing in the intake stream it lowers the temperature of the charge air and helps to slow slightly the combustion process and make the mixture more knock resistant. Like using higher octane fuel with out the cost. You have to be careful though. Having too much can wash oil from the cylinder walls and allow gasses to blow by the rings into the crankcase and increase wear due to lack of lubircation. Also you can just plain flood the mixture so it doesnt ignite properly. The alpine supercharger sits right ontop of the head though, making it difficult to intercool. The best way is most likely some kind of air to liquid intercooler and a custom intake manifold. Id need a closer look at the setup to go into that deeper.
FordFasteRR
11-09-2004, 04:21 PM
..... The best way is most likely some kind of air to liquid intercooler and a custom intake manifold. Id need a closer look at the setup to go into that deeper.
i have seen it in pictures... the problem is that there is little space between the manifold / injector rail / blower unit to fit anything else.... :( It is possible to somehow shove a core in there, but it would be so damn small that it might not be effective... you have to correctly size the intercooler to absorb X amount of heat otherwise it heats up and becomes a restriction.
here i a pic on an RD tib from rdtiburon.com this one belongs to techcontib..
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/305000-305999/305770_7_full.jpg
Elantra2.001
11-09-2004, 05:47 PM
Thats the problem with roots type blowers. It so easy to mount the blower right on the intake manifold since they blow through the bottom that you cant intercool them easily. It does make for a compact package though.
only1db
11-09-2004, 07:22 PM
how does the mini do it then??? thats about as compact as it gets!! time to get search
FordFasteRR
11-09-2004, 08:52 PM
the mini's output port is routed to a top mounted intercooler similar to the wrx ... then it blows into the tb... the reason that it works for the mini is that since the intercooler is mounted right above the blower, the piping is very short and direct...
its got like 1/3 less piping than a standard front-mount intercooler... so you dont have any lag on the blower setup...
however this is wildly different than with the alpine setup.
can it be completely re-done ? yes... at what expense ? totally re-designed setup.
only1db
11-09-2004, 09:44 PM
yeah she has the same one...but with the old intake manifold....the redesigned one is supposed to make more hp...we shall see though
techcontib
11-10-2004, 07:49 AM
If you look closely at the pic it does not have the 5th injector mounted on it. These pics are old back when we first tried to get Real Enhineering to reflash the ECU to run the s/c. Didn't really work out that great cause our old ecu just kept going to limp mode. Reflashing the old type ecu is just crap. So gave car back to John he went and got another ecu from junk car and put unichip in again. Car has ran awesome since then.
My fastest 1/4 mile was when I had a reflashed ecu running it and ran a 15.5. I don't have the slips scanned anywhere. I can't remember if I posted the current dyno but I have it back in Cali. The dyno I do have is on Cardomain that dyno was done running the reflashed ecu. I think I have the current dyno on HA.com somewhere. Why he spent alot of time retuning was cause the old tuning was not good enough. This was the same s/c kit that Yamenko had on his car with no good results.
All beta 1 s/c kits use the old manifold. Beta II use the new manifold. The newer one has even less space on the plenum to custom make a cooloing core from. Mine has about 3 inches from the mount of the s/c to where the runner starts. If you where to put one in there it would be too small to benifit anything out if it.
If you look at the Jackson s/c kit for the miata you will see that setup would be a better setup for the s/c. Hope that explains a little I will try to find my current dyno for yea.
dmdicks
11-10-2004, 08:33 AM
Two things. Use can use a water/methanol injection system to cool the intake charge. Also please note that Alpine used 97 octane in its dyno runs. More than likely the Unichip was programmed to take advantage of the higher octane petrol available in South Africa.
FordFasteRR
11-10-2004, 09:23 AM
Two things. Use can use a water/methanol injection system to cool the intake charge. Also please note that Alpine used 97 octane in its dyno runs. More than likely the Unichip was programmed to take advantage of the higher octane petrol available in South Africa.
I thought they developed the beta2 blower setup in the states... so maybe they used our type of premium gas... who knows.
also, as far as the beta1 blower setups.. I have not seen one of those with the 5th injector .. but I have seen plenty of them with a RRFPR since they have a return system they just tuned the fuel using that :)
only1db
11-10-2004, 09:29 AM
installed the unichip....isnt it just a piggyback? or do you have to take your ecu apart and actually install the chip?
FordFasteRR
11-10-2004, 09:51 AM
installed the unichip....isnt it just a piggyback? or do you have to take your ecu apart and actually install the chip?
its a piggy back.. it just taps into the wiring of a few sensors.
It also includes its own Map sensor to read boost :)
only1db
11-10-2004, 09:53 AM
so you plug it into the computer and then plug the wire harness into the unichip? like that or do i have go messing around with splicing wires and all that jazz?
FordFasteRR
11-10-2004, 09:55 AM
you do not have to modify or remove or tap into the stock ecu ... you just splice the wires in. :)
only1db
11-10-2004, 09:57 AM
what a pita.....make sure you do a good diy!! LOL
techcontib
11-10-2004, 10:03 AM
Its just the same as if you where to wire in a safc. The reason the old tune was bad like DM said they tuned it Africa and also the cars then where MAP based not MAF. The beta II was tuned here I believe using 91 octane(usa). In africa its 97 RON i think.
Ford did John say if your kit will have a unchip or the black box?
By the way if you look at my s/c you will se a little plug right after the tb thats where the fifth injector goes. But if you go for bigger injectors thats also a great spott to put the water/alky injector. Hint, hint :D
If you email Random from HA.com I think he has pictures of the beta I kit disassembled. Anyways hurry up and get your kit and take ****load of pics.
FordFasteRR
11-10-2004, 10:07 AM
John said it will have the Unichip.
Elantra2.001
11-10-2004, 10:19 AM
Also please note that Alpine used 97 octane in its dyno runs.
Thats not true 97 octane like we have here. That is 97 research octane. We use a combination of research and motor octane which is a little lower. That is probobly the equivilent of 91 or 93 octane.
ilanpro
11-10-2004, 10:21 AM
Fordfasterr you can then add a 50 shot of nitrous for suprices
OdessitPashka
11-10-2004, 12:46 PM
nitrous is always good :)
FordFasteRR
11-10-2004, 02:37 PM
I just got back from Nextgeneration Motorsports...
I had a long talk with TC and I looked at all their stuff.. They have a few beta motors there for future build-ups... :)
Anyhow, I secured a prospect for a overdrive crank pulley, underdrive blower pulley, and custom idler ( to allow for the overdrive crank pulley) AND a possible custom set of blower cams :) as well as a set of beta solid urethane motor mounts :)
WOO HOO !!!!!
Once my blower comes in and I install it.. i'll be going to the DYNO and the drag strip.. after that, i'm going over to NextGen and getting some more goodies ! :)
WOO HOO !
OdessitPashka
11-10-2004, 02:43 PM
very nice :) got an update on when you should get your stuff?
FordFasteRR
11-10-2004, 02:44 PM
very nice :) got an update on when you should get your stuff?
If everything goes as planned.. Next week.
Gman01
11-10-2004, 02:46 PM
awesome cant wait
SWortham
11-10-2004, 02:57 PM
Hope you have fun with your positive displacement supercharger. You're gonna be like a little kid getting a Red Ryder BB gun for Christmas... just don't shoot any rods through the motor. ;)
techcontib
11-10-2004, 03:37 PM
I just got back from Nextgeneration Motorsports...
I had a long talk with TC and I looked at all their stuff.. They have a few beta motors there for future build-ups... :)
Anyhow, I secured a prospect for a overdrive crank pulley, underdrive blower pulley, and custom idler ( to allow for the overdrive crank pulley) AND a possible custom set of blower cams :) as well as a set of beta solid urethane motor mounts :)
WOO HOO !!!!!
Once my blower comes in and I install it.. i'll be going to the DYNO and the drag strip.. after that, i'm going over to NextGen and getting some more goodies ! :)
WOO HOO !
Thats what I am talking about great news. hopefully summer project
I can't wait to see what TC can do with the Beta II and Alpine's SC for it. He has been one of the biggest developers of persformance parts for the Delta, at least in the US.
FordFasteRR
11-10-2004, 05:12 PM
well, from what i've seen.. I dont think it would be too hard to swap a 2.4L motor from a sonata into the XD engine bay...
All that would really make the difference is the bellhousing bolt-pattern.
I would say, that if the 2.4L fits on the beta transmission.. it would only be a matter of time before someone does a swap... the electronics would be easily adaptable from the beta to the 2.4L with little modifications... I would like to see that !
You see, I got the idea from the guy who swapped a beta2 into his accent..
all he did was custom make 1 motor mount and it swapped right in... he just adapted all of the stock sensors and even used the stock beta injectors with the stock alpha harness & ecu and it adapted perfectly to the beta... it was like magic... the 2.4L has more torque and slightly more power than the beta.. with a little work by TC, I could have the blower manifold adapted to the 2.4L in the future :) that would be sweet.
Phiber
11-10-2004, 06:39 PM
This is exactly what I would like to do. Three grand for everything; sounds sweet! Be able to compete with these damned Mini S! Grrr.
FordFasteRR
11-10-2004, 08:30 PM
ohhh. i know i can beat a mini S if i had the blower... i raced one once with a spectacular driver and he only beat me by a few car-lengths.
slow 2K2GT
11-10-2004, 08:48 PM
I just got back from Nextgeneration Motorsports...
I had a long talk with TC and I looked at all their stuff.. They have a few beta motors there for future build-ups... :)
Anyhow, I secured a prospect for a overdrive crank pulley, underdrive blower pulley, and custom idler ( to allow for the overdrive crank pulley) AND a possible custom set of blower cams :) as well as a set of beta solid urethane motor mounts :)
WOO HOO !!!!!
Once my blower comes in and I install it.. i'll be going to the DYNO and the drag strip.. after that, i'm going over to NextGen and getting some more goodies ! :)
WOO HOO !
By the sounds of this than you dont want me to look into the pulley for you eh?
FordFasteRR
11-10-2004, 09:05 PM
well, if yo