Official Dyno Discussion Thread

[FordFasteRR]

Jay, I was looking at your dyno post... how come the hp keeps going up from run 1 to run 3 ?

What were you doing to make the power increase ?

It starts with like 127 hp and ends up with 130 hp.. ?
and the torque has a similar incremental change...

Please explain. :)

http://www.elantraxd.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1513




_______________________

To see the Official Dyno Thread click on this: Official Dyno Thread (http://www.elantraxd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4877)

[Jmontigny]

No good answer. As the engine gets hotter maybe it makes more HP due to computer adjustments. My intake tube was wrapped with heat wrap so it did not get any hotter as the engine ran for a while. Most people have the intake exposed to the heat of the engine which can in turn increase intake charge temp. The air coming into the engine was always the same temp since my filter was behind the foglight opening and we had a large fan blowing fresh air at the filter and radiator.

So that was it. I don't believe I even reset the ecu before the dyno run.

[FordFasteRR]

ok thanks for the info..

also, why didn't you get an air fuel chart ?

[Jmontigny]

I did. I don't have it anymore. I do remember that it was quite rich as the rpm increased.

[tharptroy]

my dyno varied from run to run as well.

it made the most hp and torque on the 2nd run, and fell back down on the last run

no ecu reset

[FordFasteRR]

my dyno varied from run to run as well.

it made the most hp and torque on the 2nd run, and fell back down on the last run

no ecu reset


Did you post your dyno sheet on the official dyno thread ?

Please do it soon so I can see it :)

THanks !

[tharptroy]

lol, it was posted on the old board, and I think you're still hosting it!
http://www.nitrousworld.com/pictures/after_evo_dyno.jpg

[FordFasteRR]

awesome !
ok, go and re-post that on the official dyno thread & list the mods @ the time of this dyno :)

PLLEEEEAAASE !

[tharptroy]

whoops, I thought I did post it on the official thread...my brain must have been off when I did that

[FordFasteRR]

awesome :) THanks for posting it.

so now let me ask..

for your dyno, you had just a cat-back.. so you had both stock cats in place right ?

also, you had a totally stock intake manifold & tb right ?

If you notice the differences in power for the other guys who dynoed... they have an average of 5 - 6 whp more ... I figure this can be attributed to gains yielded by a ported IM...

5 whp is not a bad gain for a FREE mod ... :) I say, port your IM and get the POWAH !! :)

DO IT NOOOOWWW !! ( Arnold voice )

[tharptroy]

yep, stock IM and TB.

I think Im really waiting to see what your supercharger setup nets before I fool with anything else at this point.

my exhaust is also back to stock for now.

[evil247]

When I dynoed there was not really any change in the runs that I did. The guy that dynoed it said it was one of the most consistent cars he had dynoed.

[tharptroy]

was your car warm before the runs?

[evil247]

Yeah I had driven it over. It sat for maybe 20 mins before the runs

[tharptroy]

My car was parked for a few hours before they got to me

[FordFasteRR]

even if the engine was not completely warmed up, it will still produce similar results..

i would say that in order to make a HUGE difference, it would basically have to be completely frozen or something... lol

[FordFasteRR]

did everybody see this yet ?

How about the gains from that ported IM and TB ! ?? SO SWEET ! 5 whp and 6 ft.lb of torque SAE corrected @ the wheels !!!

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/703000-703999/703490_49_full.jpg


AWESOME GAINS !

[mrhoaf]

hey pumbaa... what other mods have you done to get it up to 128whp from stock?

[cclngthr]

He has the Kore CAI and custom Magnaflow exhaust, ground wire mod, tb coolant bypass mod and ported intake/tb.

On my car, which has the same mods except for the ported intake, I have 112 whp and torque. The difference is I have the automatic, and they were also having trouble making the pulls because the tranny kept downshifting. What they ended up doing was letting it shift at WOT and making the sample when it hit 3rd gear. I am going to see what happens to the numbers when the sample is taken when you wot the car until it maxes out in 3rd gear (by letting it shift).

[tuner]

very nice!!!! :abovelol: :abovelol:

[Keyan]

did everybody see this yet ?

How about the gains from that ported IM and TB ! ?? SO SWEET ! 5 whp and 6 ft.lb of torque SAE corrected @ the wheels !!!

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/703000-703999/703490_49_full.jpg


AWESOME GAINS !


Yesyes, I saw that earlier today :)
Very sweet!

Makes me want to buy one...
kind of poor though..

[FordFasteRR]

I think Jay was right about the stock manifold helping to keep the back-pressure in and making lots of torque with few mods...

because Pumbaa has the stock manifold with just a cat-back and he made lots of torque !! :)

[gmtorque]

I must have missed something. Did Pumba dyno with a stock exhaust manifold? Where is the sheet and what were the numbers?

[mrhoaf]

yes he did.... if you look closely at the sheet you'll see that the 2 dyno runs were done on different dates... before and after...

[gmtorque]

Thanks I totally forgot about the seperate dyno thread. :redface:

[FordFasteRR]

either way, it was a good dyno run :)

definate improvement in power and torque..

I would like to point out that there were at least 2 variations from his first run besides the ported IM and TB ..

1. on his original run, he used 17 inch rims.
on his new run, he used 15 inch rims.

2. on his original run, he was using the oem ecu just plain reset.
on his new run, he had the oem ecu flashed at the dealer. (I don't know which flash he had done so it may just be one that smoothens out the 4000 rpm hump)...

anyway, besides those 2 things... everything else remained the same.. I can't say how much of a gain if any were caused by the modifications he made vs the ported intake, but I still think the ported intake is what made the biggest difference and I think that anyone else who uses will will still see almost identical results...

:)

[cclngthr]

He told me he had the 3800-4200 rpm power lag and the one where the engine hangs at high rpm during shifts.

[mrhoaf]

I'm curious what other mods hae been done that got the original numbers to where they were..... I didn't think a stock XD had 123whp....

[FordFasteRR]

I'm curious what other mods hae been done that got the original numbers to where they were..... I didn't think a stock XD had 123whp....


how many times do people have to explain to you that he already had a cat-back and a cold air intake and the TB Coolant bypass mod !

:bondage:

[tharptroy]

lol ford...no need to beat him.

I know this is to be expected from Troy, but I dont like the variables.

because as I know you know, it makes it hard to analyze what does what as far as performance....damn, I wish I had a dynojet in my garage!

I wonder if the ECU re-flash did anything to the power curve...

ah well, I may have you do my other manifold in the future (or I may just do what you do to it myself)....but if you remove those humps in the manifold, im kicking your butt! :bondage:


:D unless of course they've been removed from the head.

[FordFasteRR]

......

ah well, I may have you do my other manifold in the future (or I may just do what you do to it myself)....but if you remove those humps in the manifold, im kicking your butt! :bondage:


:D unless of course they've been removed from the head.


I am willing to bet that if you dont remove the humps on the manifold side, you wont see anywhere near the gains vs getting rid of them.

:)

[gmtorque]

A stock Elantra I had dynoed on a Dynojet made 120 sae whp

I am willing to bet that if you dont remove the humps on the manifold side, you wont see anywhere near the gains vs getting rid of them.

:)

I hope you did not remove the hump in the middle of the intake runner right before it enters the head. :eek: That is needed to match the identical hump that is on the intake port on the head.

[ilanpro]

How much gain can you get from the ported head??

[FordFasteRR]

........I hope you did not remove the hump in the middle of the intake runner right before it enters the head. :eek: That is needed to match the identical hump that is on the intake port on the head.

it is not needed to match anything.... in fact, the hump on the manifold is much narrower from the top of the port to the tip of the hump... lol on the head side, the opening is much bigger.

so getting rid of the hump is what actually helps you make more power.

remember, this ported manifold only has the actual ports widened up, not the runner itself ! All of the gains come from removing the hump at the end of the port + porting the TB opening to match the porting of the TB ...

also...

How much gain can you get from the ported head??

Only 1 person that I know of has ported a beta 1 cyl head.. (RED I THINK) and I dont remember what gains he had in NA form...

sorry :)

[gmtorque]

it is not needed to match anything.... in fact, the hump on the manifold is much narrower from the top of the port to the tip of the hump... lol on the head side, the opening is much bigger.

so getting rid of the hump is what actually helps you make more power.

remember, this ported manifold only has the actual ports widened up, not the runner itself ! All of the gains come from removing the hump at the end of the port + porting the TB opening to match the porting of the TB ...


I guess this something we will need to agree to disagree about. I spent much time comparing the intake ports to the head ports and even had Carbon send me a phenolic gasket with the ports made small so I could match the intake, gasket and head. What you have done has made a place that creates a bunch of turbulence when the air slams into the flat side of the hump on the head. One thing the head builder I was going to use liked was the hump from the intake to the head to direct the air down the runners better. The reason the the intake has a slightly larger hump is to help the air over the slightly smaller hump in the head after the gap left from the gasket.

Again we are going to have to agree to disagree about this. I say the HP and torque came from the reflash and ecu reset etc. more than the intake manifold work. Sorry.

[cclngthr]

Under WOT, you will find more power with the ported intake. Since more air is flowing into the engine, you will have more chances of all the fuel being burnt.

I did notice the tailpipe emissions was cleaner on Pumbaa's car than mine on the dyno. My car has some black goo coming out under WOT and Pumbaa's car has none when he was on the dyno.

[FordFasteRR]

...

Again we are going to have to agree to disagree about this. I say the HP and torque came from the reflash and ecu reset etc. more than the intake manifold work. Sorry.


the gains came from the intake manifold porting.

on average, people with the ported IM are making 5 whp more than the ones with the stock IM.

[gmtorque]

Well I guess this is the reason I decided to make a change. I got tired of debating about 2 or 3 hp on a 130whp 4cyl. Went to a 3.8L that I love so much which is capable of 15.8 1/4 mile times bone stock while weighing 3500lbs. I could only take so much frustration trying to squeeze water from a stone. I had to end the madness. ;)

Keep up the good work getting every last bit you can out of these cars.

[Pumbaa]

Sorry, been very busy since I got the dyno run done. Just want to mention the mods on dyno chart one. I had a KORE CAI, A 2 1/4" exhaust from the cat back, not mandrel bent, connected to an oval shapes magnaflow muffler with a 30 degree angel straight through muffler. The tip is 2 1/4" rolled lip, meaning the tip is restrictive, the roll causes the tip to only be 2". I had a custom ground wire mod, with 3 wires off the IM to the battery, strut tower and firewall. Plus a wire from the front of the motor and one near the distributor. NGK spark plug wires and V-Power plugs. Running on 87 octane. With 17" AMP wheels that weigh 34lbs each with Yokohama AVS Tires. Also I did not reset the ecu, so it shows my driving habits.

The second dyno run I swapped the front wheels to the stock rims, and tires, which weigh 28lbs each. This change on the dyno is seen as the gain at the low end. They don't make a difference on the top, due to less rotational mass. The ECU reflash was done one tuesday last week. It inlcuded, 3800-4000rpm hesitation and hanging rpms with A/C on. I don't think that made a difference on the dyno, due to A/C not being on. Only gain on that was the flatter power curve, loss the hesitation. I was running 91 octane premium gas. I don't know how much of a difference that made. The IM & TB was installed on wednesday, dyno done on Monday, The TB Bypass was done when I installed the IM. I did two runs, the first run was without the ECU being reset and the guy forgot to turn on the fan in front of the car. The second run was with the ECU reset and fan on.

The gains we see in the chart are due to the increased airflow through the IM. The IM makes a slight whistle hissing noise, it sounded nice on the dyno. The whistle in my opinion (aerodynamic knowledge *I'm a Pilot*) is due to the turbulence being created from the lump in the Head. I stuck my ear around the IM and found that the sound emminates from the head to IM area. Near the injectors. I thought I had a gasket leak at first, but did test and came up negative. The smooth airflow into the IM has increased, the tone from the CAI is higher pitched indicating increased airflow. N/A knowlodge shows that perfectly smooth parts don't work in terms of retaining torque. I think due to the turbulence created into the head ports the fuel is mixed better. Example as CCIngthr has stated, the lack of black soot *unburned fuel* indicated a cleaner burn and increased match of air to fuel into the motor. Plus the 91 octane may make this difference. Higher octane burns slower, giving time for the fuel to burn cleaner. That is why race cars use 100-110 octane avgas. Also the increased airflow into the engine is seen under full power, when throttle @ 100%. This as CC stated, due WOT conditions, increased airflow. I'm kicking myself for not doing A/F Ratio. That would be the tell tale example to this air fuel mixing. The increase in torque is due to the lighter wheels, and the higher mass of air available in the IM when the throttle is @ 100%. The increase in HP is due to the increased airflow into the motor.

[gmtorque]

So the first run was before the ecu reset and the second run was after. PLus you used much lighter wheels/tires and bypassed the coolant to the T/B. I still say the manifold added vitually nothing. The ecu reset was the key contributor in my opinion.

Resetting the ECU on my old 2002 would make a difference you could feel which is evident in your dyno run above. I remember a couple instances where it made a drastic change to 1/4 mile times for a couple people as well when the reset the ECU vs not.

[cclngthr]

I don't think 91 octane is much different than 89 octane, which I was running. The higher octane does increase the temperature slightly which does create a better burn, but you also need sufficient air to make it burn thoroughly. Race fuel (nitro methane) does burn hotter, but it also detonates much easier unless you have the increased timing and compression to handle that.

It could be that the tip is slowing the flow just enough to create the better burn. My car has a straight through style muffler that ends about an inch from the end of the muffler, which has 2 pipes (2.5 inchx2). It is theoretically possible I have more flow on my car, but also the problem with insufficient burn because it is flowing faster than it has time to burn. Now, if I had the ported intake, I would have more air, which would lean out the mixture enough to make a full burn (thus more power).

I also think if Ford would port the manifold in a way that slight curved "grooves" going into the manifold are evident, the turbulence would be a tornado effect, which stirs the mixture more, we could higher numbers (theoretically).

[FordFasteRR]

Well I guess this is the reason I decided to make a change. I got tired of debating about 2 or 3 hp on a 130whp 4cyl. Went to a 3.8L that I love so much which is capable of 15.8 1/4 mile times bone stock while weighing 3500lbs. I could only take so much frustration trying to squeeze water from a stone. I had to end the madness. ;)

Keep up the good work getting every last bit you can out of these cars.


ok then, why don't you take your GM cars and shove them up your a)o(.

Don't come on my thread and try to rationalize why you don't even drive the cars that we are talking about and that trying to make the fast is pointless... Just stay the F--k away from my threads if you plan to talk sh-t because I don't have to put up with it, and neither do any other XD members.


:mad:

[cclngthr]

OK, boys and girls, stop the immature behavior. I've had enough of that over the last few days.

[gmtorque]

ok then, why don't you take your GM cars and shove them up your a)o(.

Don't come on my thread and try to rationalize why you don't even drive the cars that we are talking about and that trying to make the fast is pointless... Just stay the F--k away from my threads if you plan to talk sh-t because I don't have to put up with it, and neither do any other XD members.


:mad:

Nobody is talking sh-t but you. Modifying an intake manifold the way you have is not responsible for making any hp or torque. If anything you have actually hurt the performance potential of his motor. Since when do all the motors with the humps chopped off the manifolds make 5hp? Since this was far from a controlled experiment with before and after dyno results you have no right to be claiming that your manifold made any hp at all. You need to actually compare apples to apples to make those claims. There were so many differences from the before and after dyno runs that I am amazed that you would even consider trying to take credit for anything.

Do this for me since I don't have the parts handy what is the size of the ports on the intake manifold? And what is the size of the opening on the T/B. Figure out the surface area of the openings. And then compare the t/b surface area to the intake manifold port surface area. Here is what I will guess the sizes are about. The t/b is 54mm which makes for 3.51" of surface area and the ports we will say are 1"x1.5" times 4 openings for 6.0" of total surface area. So you have air coming into a 3.5" surface area and then going out a 6.0" surface area. How does making the 6.0" area bigger get more air past the 3.5" surface area of the t/b?

Now if we want to argue that your disrupting the airflow has helped the mixture to get more torque that is possible. But if that was the case don't you think if the engineeers figured out that the turbulence could make 6 ft-lbs they would have done it already? Just a thought.

[Pumbaa]

In regards to the ECU Reflash, there will not be a 2 - 3hp gain. Also, the wheels as I stated before only show the most gain at the low end due to the lower rotational mass. But the numbers are seen in the top end on the graph. The gains that were seen, both torque and hp aren't due to the reflash, nor the rims. In terms of fuel, that won't give you that much gains either, all it will do is make the engine burn more efficient. I'll call Intec Racing and request the #'s from the first and second runs to verify gains / losses due to the ECU reset. I drive my car daily, and trust me, I was very leary of the gains after installing the IM. My butt dyno only noticed a change in the upper mid range. The dyno just reaffirms my suspisions that the gains were in the upper mid range. The only reason the gain is seen at the low to mid range is due to the lighter wheels, and the ECU reflash which removed the hesitation. Even the hesitation isn't gone all the way, so trust me. The ECU reflash didn't give me the gains. I had time to drive the vehicle post the ECU reflash and I only felt the gain as the loss in hesitation. I drove my car 100 miles before installing the IM, after installing the IM I drove another 200 miles before the dyno. So like I said, we'll see when I call Intec Racing what the #'s were on the ECU prior to the reset. Then compare it to the second run. If you compare many of the other dyno charts on this board, there are members with more mods than I have, BBTB, Headers, No cat's. Fuel Tuners. And the numbers aren't that much higher than mine. So as I stated before, the ECU reflash isn't where the gain was. It was a combo of the wheel size and IM. And speaking of the design of the IM, yes, there is now turbulence that is created going into the head, but this turbulence is what is helping the air fuel mix better. It creates a venturi into the head. You're taking a mass of air that is in the IM squeezing it into a smaller hole, which in turn lower the air pressure and raises wind velocity, which in turn causes the injectors to spray into denser air prior to the hump, then is squeezed through the venturi causing some turbulence and mixing the air, then the flow slows and becomes denser again. That is where the gain is. Remember, I'm using a stock header and both cats, the venturi effect is going to increase fuel burn efficiency. I would see higher gains if I had a more free flowing exhaust, but that would be in whp, and I would in turn loose my torque due to the loss of air density in the IM.

[gmtorque]

Do this for me since I don't have the parts handy what is the size of the ports on the intake manifold? And what is the size of the opening on the T/B. Figure out the surface area of the openings. And then compare the t/b surface area to the intake manifold port surface area. Here is what I will guess the sizes are about. The t/b is 54mm which makes for 3.51" of surface area and the ports we will say are 1"x1.5" times 4 openings for 6.0" of total surface area. So you have air coming into a 3.5" surface area and then going out a 6.0" surface area. How does making the 6.0" area bigger get more air past the 3.5" surface area of the t/b?



Checked it out this morning. The t/b allows air to pass through a 3.62 square inch surface area. The outlet ports on the intake manifold allow air to pass through an approximate 8 square inch surface area. The intake valves allow air to pass through a 6.32 square inch surface area.

So the air enters a 3.62 square inch hole
then passes through 4 holes that are 8 square inchs
and finally enters the cumbustion chamber through 8 holes with 6.32 square inches of surface area.

So how is making the 8 square inch area bigger going to make more power, you are not making the holes before or after any bigger are you? It might sound cool with all the turbulence you have created but I would be hesitant to spend money on it.

[FordFasteRR]

the intake valve openings have to be smaller to create a venturi effect ...

the area of the opening of the ports themselves on the head are bigger than the opening of the ports on the manifold..

the area of the valve size is of course smaller...

the valve size is almost always much smaller than the port size because you need to reduce the size in order to increase the velocity just at the entry to the cylinders...

so your point does not prove anything....

[gmtorque]

Look if you want to do it right get the intake manifold sent to Extrudehone. Then have a head worked over and have a phenolic gasket made that "actually" matches the ports from intake manifold to head. I can assure you that a professional that knows what they are doing will keep the hump on both the head and intake to direct the airflow into the combustion chamber. I have a freind who has done this but I don't believe the parts are reinstalled yet. He plans to dyno with the head work and Extrudehoned manifold as well. I actually set him up with a discounted price for the Extrudehone since it is the first one which required a jig be made for it for future beta II manifolds. The Extrudehone will actually equalize volume between the 4 runners as well as smooth and increase velocity.

The old beta motors from 96-00 did not have this hump design. The new 01-05 beta motors use the new hump design simply because it is better. It was one of the improvements made to the 01-05 Beta motors to improve air flow into the cylinder head vs. the old 96-00 design.

Ever notice that people equate more noise with their car feeling faster?

[2004ElantraGLS]

My gawd, man! Would you let it go already?!?! If you don't like what Steve is doing to these Manifolds then don't buy one. Every single person who has one of Steve's ported IM/TBs is very happy. Let's leave it at that! You're beating this thing to death for NO reason.

Steve, keep up the good work, man. I'm looking forward to seeing more of these going on our cars, and hopefully, I'll be able to do this sometime in the future.

Regards,
Axel

[FordFasteRR]

well all this extrude hone work is by far superior to any porting I could ever do..

an extrude honed manifold cannot be compared to what I am doing ... that is a professional process that requires expensive equipment and materials.. plus, they are a huge company that can do work in volume and in turn offer the customer a much lower price...

it will be nice to see what your friend gains in power with his setup.. but unfortunately it cannot be compared to what we have done here since he is also getting a ported cylinder head and pumbaa is running the stock head...

Anyway... the hump on the head has a simple purpose, to create a swirl of the air charge as it enters the combustion chambers to help make more torque at low rpms.

the reason that removing the hump on the manifold side yields more power is that this " hump " actually restricts air flow at higher rpms.

the gains we see are consistent with an improvement in air flow and that is why this mod helps make more power over stock.

[gmtorque]

I would agree if the dyno runs he did actually compared apples to apples but they didn't. Just the ECU being reset in itself is good for the majority of the power increase that was seen.

Until a legit before and after dyno is done that shows more power I can't agree. There simply were too many variables to be able to say your intake make all the difference.

Remember his car is only making 8hp and 10ft-lbs more than stock. That is normal for a car with a catback and cai. Compare his dyno to Tharptroy with a cai and catback. The hp is the same at 128 and the torque is only 2 ft-lbs higher which could be equated to any number of things.

Simple fact is that 127-130hp and 129-132 ft-lbs are normal numbers for a Beta II with a catback and a cai.

[Atomic]

What was that old saying, something along the lines of: "If you argue with me you must be selling something.", or something like that.

Not to stir the ****, but I find it odd that you're so new, but attacking ford so directly.
How convenient that gmtorque personally set his friend up for a discounted deal. So I'm guessing you have a new jig and no sales, so you came here to find some buisness, but instead decided to put ford down, lame. I know I definently won't purchase anything from that company, personally you make them sound arrogant.

[gmtorque]

Sorry, no connection to Extrudehone. No plans to sell or help anyone sell anything either. Just trying to save people some money and hassle.

Actually I have been a part of these boards since before the original XD site came up. Was as Randoms old site actually.

[silet]

Sorry, no connection to Extrudehone. No plans to sell or help anyone sell anything either. Just trying to save people some money and hassle.

Actually I have been a part of these boards since before the original XD site came up. Was as Randoms old site actually.


I can't sit back any more... gmtorque, did you ever own a 99 and/or 02 lantra? ;)

[Pumbaa]

Ok, so if you are saying that a Elantra should produce 127-130whp with CAI and Catback, than why don't you go look at the dyno thread! I fricken dyno'd 2 weeks prior with CAI, Catback, ground wires, NGK Wire and V-Power plugs @ 123whp, so don't go saying 127-130whp. Ok cause yer wrong! I agree there are many variables. But you gotta understand, the Beta motor takes alot of tweeking to get power. And 5 whp from a CAI and Exhaust didn't happen. And I agree 5 whp wasn't made 100% by the IM, but I say 3-4 whp because the variables are seen on the chart! Wheels, only added low end power. reflash made gain in overall range, but not 5 whp, maybe only 1whp and the hesitation is gone. Thats that, like I said, I drive my car daily, and there was no power gain due to reflash, and there was a slight gain with the IM.

[gmtorque]

You also had those heavy 17" wheels when you dynoed 123. Plus no reflash for 3800rpm and no reset ecu. Stock with the reset ecu reflash and 15" wheels you would have been around 120.

I rest my case. I am sure people can make their own decisions at this point.


I can't sit back any more... gmtorque, did you ever own a 99 and/or 02 lantra? ;) and a 95 Accent and a 2001 Santa Fe and...

[tharptroy]

remember gm, an engine flows in pulses, so the throttle body will never need to supply air to all 4 cylinders at once.

the air in the plenum feeds each port, not the throttle body directly.


my dyno was also done with 16" wheels and oversized (taller and wider than stock) tires. so that should be taken into account. he should be producing more torque than me.

this dyno makes it really hard to tell what the hell has been done to the power curve.

I've given ford my opinion on this in the past via PM, and while I dont agree that this proves what he's done has increased power, I wont necessarily say it hurts power until I see a more conclusive test.

we may see any number of results when this thing is strapped to a dynojet and given a real comparison. the turbulence being created may hurt power in some areas, while helping it in others...it may not make a bit of difference.

people will look at this thread and come to their own conclusions...just like the infamous evo fusion catback thread that cost me $350 to prove my point. why on earth people didnt beleive that yamkemono had false dyno sheets is beyond me...oh well.

BTW, "If you argue with me you must be selling something."

there is one person who is selling something, and GM hasnt made any implications that its him. I dont think your statement applies at all in the way you're using it.

[Pumbaa]

Duh! I already covered the wheels dummy! And I covered the hesitation! I agree the ECU reset would have maid a slight gain but not 3 whp!

I agree in regards to the selling part, yes Ford is trying to sell something, and people also need to take into consideration, this is a mild port job. Not the crazy stuff, so yes I expected to see a 3 whp gain when I dyno'd not 5whp like I got. I will drive this for awhile, find some time in the next few months, reinstall the stock IM, and dyno it under the same conditions. Then we'll see, I also agree that there is a loss in somes spots due to the IM and gains in other.

[cclngthr]

You also had those heavy 17" wheels when you dynoed 123. Plus no reflash for 3800rpm and no reset ecu. Stock with the reset ecu reflash and 15" wheels you would have been around 120.

I rest my case. I am sure people can make their own decisions at this point.


and a 95 Accent and a 2001 Santa Fe and...
A science lesson:

Obviously, you are having trouble with science. Rotating mass is harder to get moving, but will make it easier to stay moving once it does get moving. An engine with the same power does not show a difference in overall power with the bigger mass to move (versus the smaller mass); but will rev quicker with the smaller mass to move.

I dynoed my car right after Pumbaa and as you can see during the first run, the numbers are about 3-5 points lower during the first run, which the ecu was not reset.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/482000-482999/482847_18_full.jpg

The second run, the ecu was reset, which gave me higher numbers, and I did not change anything else.

[Atomic]

Ok, maybe I was wrong. I guess I should let the morning cobwebs/hangover clear before I open my mouth, hehe.

[silet]

You also had those heavy 17" wheels when you dynoed 123. Plus no reflash for 3800rpm and no reset ecu. Stock with the reset ecu reflash and 15" wheels you would have been around 120.

I rest my case. I am sure people can make their own decisions at this point.


and a 95 Accent and a 2001 Santa Fe and...

...the Bonneville replaced the minivan! Right? And Pumbaa is right. He did mention the wheels :)

[gmtorque]

Reduced wheel/tire weight as well as reduced flywheel/clutch weights will increase hp read on the dyno. In most cases a Mustang will see about 15hp at the wheels on a dyno from a simple light weight flywheel upgrade. Tires/wheels I have seen make as much as a 8hp difference in hp read by the dyno when switching from heavy to light ones.

This does not mean the engine is making more hp, it just means more of the hp is actually being used to accelerate the vehicle.

[cclngthr]

The difference in weight should not make a difference in power. The difference is how fast the engine is able to produce the maximum power. On Pumbaa's first dyno, the graph shows a slower rise in power than on the second go around.

[tharptroy]

inertial dynos measure horsepower based on how fast a car can accelerate a given load.

if the engine and associated systems can accelerate faster, then horsepower increases on an inertia dyno.
lightweight flywhyeels show up on inertial dynos. lightweight wheels show up, changing gears shows up.

hell, even wheel alignment will make a difference on a dyno like this.

if you read this, you'll see some horsepower versus time graphs. this isnt RPM or vehicle speed, so be aware that the gains ARE NOT DIMINISHING WITH RPM. (you'll need to translate the graphs to the left and to the right to be able to compare them.)
http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/0407vet_flywheel/

and of course, different tire diameters will affect readings as well, I dont know what size your 17" thingamadoodles are, nor do I care. but that should be taken into consideration as well.

and as a side note: man, I love corvettes!

and I dont know where you got your theories on octane either, but thats another discussion

[cclngthr]

The 17''s Pumbaa has are slightly smaller in diameter than the stock rim/tire.

[Pumbaa]

Ok, check the dyno thread again. Posted the first and second runs, those are the gains between both runs.

[FordFasteRR]

thanks for posting that up dude ! :)

now all the haters can suck it ! :)

[tharptroy]

ford, what does that dyno prove other than the fact that re-setting the ecu makes more power?

[Pumbaa]

After installing the IM, running on 91 octanes, using lighter wheels and tires that have a bigger overall diameter and the reflash, there is a 4.1whp gain and 3lb/ft tq gain. So after reseting the ECU, which is true, does show a gain. Which is 1.1whp and 3.7lb/ft tq gain. Ford told me ahead of time, that when I dyno not to be surprised if I saw a loss of power and torque on the first run. But obviously the IM, wheels and octanes, and reflash do make a gain all together. I still can't explain the torque gains overall. Their amazing on this car. The mid range is where you see most the gains in both situations. @ 4300rpm you see the highest gains bewteen both runs, 108.9whp before ECU Reset, and 110whp after. 129.3lb/ft tq before and 133.00 after. Now if you compare the 2/5/05 run you will see the gains are all across the board. That just goes to show all the variables in the gains. But you'll still see the highest gains on all three charts were in the mid range. That is due to the IM, and its higher air flow characteristics. If you look at my 2/5/05 runs, the gains between each run were seen at higher RPMs.

[cclngthr]

If we both had the a/f mixture readings done, we could tell the differences between the dyno readings and having the ported IM/tb and not having the ported IM/tb.

[oregun]

A science lesson:

Obviously, you are having trouble with science. Rotating mass is harder to get moving, but will make it easier to stay moving once it does get moving. An engine with the same power does not show a difference in overall power with the bigger mass to move (versus the smaller mass); but will rev quicker with the smaller mass to move.

Actually, a larger mass is more

1) difficult to get moving
2) MORE DIFFICULT TO KEEP MOVING. (Edit: under real world conditions)
3) more difficult to slow down/stop

Don't confuse # 3 to negate #2.

Think of it this way. If you put an extra 500 pounds in your car, you will accelerate slower, and brake slower. In addtion, you will use more gas going from point A to point B. If extra mass made it easier to "keep moving" then we would all invite a bunch of fat friends along when ever we wanted to save gas.

In terms of changing wheel/tire or flywheel mass, or for that matter the extra mass from upgrading the brake rotors, a car will demonstrate a change of WHP.

Unlike dynamic modifications like BBTB, IM, Exhuat - the change in mass will provide a CONSTANT difference across other modifications.

Which brings me to a quick question for Ford... I know a while back that you went dyno crazy for 2 weeks and changed out your muffler during the process. Do you have any comparisions where your engine is the same, but the only difference is your brake modification. Ever since I put my sonata brakes on (and I love them) I feel that my car might have lost some spunk.

[cclngthr]

However, the different wheels/tires are not exactly the same size. The 17's are about 3/4 inch to an inch shorter than the stock 15's (total diameter). The smaller diameter can offset the lighter rim/tire that is larger due to the final gear ratio (including tires).

I do remember a sticky thread Ford make (on this forum section) that has several dyno sheets and what changes Ford made.

[oregun]

I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about. If you have a shorter diameter wheel/tire package, then you will have a shorter final gear ratio. This would result in higher whp readings, just like a lighter wheel/tire combination.

Also, why would a 17 inch wheel/tire combo be 3/4 inch shorter then stock? 205/45R17 is almost exactly the same (0.05inchs bigger).

[tharptroy]

2) MORE DIFFICULT TO KEEP MOVING.



always good on the input oregun, but inertia dictates that an object in motion will tend to stay in motion unless acted on by an outside force.

a heavy wheel will maintain its speed for a longer period of time than one with less inertia.

the point of a dyno is acceleration, not steady state operation.

so the heavy wheel is MORE DIFFICULT TO KEEP ACCELERATING.

[oregun]

I assume you are being uber specific and, yes you are quite correct.

I used the term "to keep moving" in reference to maintaining a constant velocity under realworld conditions that involve the constant deceleration you experience due to friction, air resistance, i.e. outside forces.

It is true that if two cars that begin to coast at the same velocity, the heavier car will go farther. Also, my example with the fat guys still stands. Both results are due to inertia.

Edit:

I just thought of a steady state use for a dyno. . . Partial throttle a/f map tuning. Since I like the emanage better than the SAFC :D

[cclngthr]

always good on the input oregun, but inertia dictates that an object in motion will tend to stay in motion unless acted on by an outside force.

a heavy wheel will maintain its speed for a longer period of time than one with less inertia.

the point of a dyno is acceleration, not steady state operation.

so the heavy wheel is MORE DIFFICULT TO KEEP ACCELERATING.

However, the heavier wheel is also smaller in total diameter than the lighter wheel. The difference in diameter also affects the final gear ratio, which affects acceleration. A smaller wheel/tire diameter can make the car accelerate faster, but also top out sooner than the taller tire/wheel.

Given the heavier rim/tire is smaller than lighter rim, the weight difference is basically a wash because the diameter difference cancels the weight difference.

[oregun]

However, the different wheels/tires are not exactly the same size. The 17's are about 3/4 inch to an inch shorter than the stock 15's (total diameter). The smaller diameter can offset the lighter rim/tire that is larger due to the final gear ratio (including tires).


However, the heavier wheel is also smaller in total diameter than the lighter wheel. The difference in diameter also affects the final gear ratio, which affects acceleration. A smaller wheel/tire diameter can make the car accelerate faster, but also top out sooner than the taller tire/wheel.

Given the heavier rim/tire is smaller than lighter rim, the weight difference is basically a wash because the diameter difference cancels the weight difference.

Sigh, once again I am in a bad mood but . . .

Okay. Fine. A shorter final gear ratio will result in a higher dyno rating. I agree with this, and always have. My comments on mass and it's affects on dyno readings were "general," not specific to Pumba, where a change in mass was cocurrent with a change in final drive ratio on the dyno.

I specifically wanted to make the point that modifications that change weight result in constant results across modifications. (Yes I know, you really want to bring up the fact that final gear ratios are important, so in order to reduce the temptation I will avoid using wheel/tire combinations as an example.)

Let's use the flywheel instead. Imagine that the stock flywheel, weighing in at 14 lbs, results in a 10 hp loss from crank to wheels (a totally made up number for example). Every time you accelerate, it takes the same 10 hp to rotate. Now, you change out chubby for the fidenza unit weighing in at 7 lbs. Now you only loose 5 hp from crank to wheels and a dyno will show a 5 hp gain. Regardless if you engine is stock, IHE, Turbo, Nitrous- that flywheel swap results in 5 extra wheel horse power.

The same is not true of "engine" modifications like a BBTB, CAI, Exhaust. Lets say that the only modification you make is a BBTB and that gets you 1 whp.
At the same time your buddy gets a CAI and gains 3 whp.
If you get a BBTB and a CAI, you would expect 4 whp, but you might get 6-7 because they complement each other.
A more drastic, but equivilant comparison might be made with a Turbo (60 hp) vs. Port and Polish (5 hp on a stock elantra) together making 80 hp.

I have never commented, or intended to say anything that relates directly to Pumba's dyno. I made a correction to your "science lesson" because it was gibberish - seriously. I also bring up your comments on final drive ratio, because you contradict yourself between the two posts.
_______________________________

Okay, if I let you bring up the final drive ratio again, will you answer my previous question. Why would a 17 inch wheel and tire combination necessarily have a different diameter than stock, and what are Pumba's wheel/tire sizes.

[cclngthr]

His tire sizes are the stock 195/60/15 and 205/40/17.

If you measure the 17 inch wheel/tire combo, it is about 1/2 inch shorter than the 195/60/15 wheel/tire combo. However, the weight of the 17 inch rim/tire is about 5 pounds heavier than the 28 pound stock rim/tire combo, which could cancel out the gains made by the smaller diameter; we will see when he redoes the dyno with the 17's.

On the flywheel issue, the lighter one will get you more hp, but that is done by the swap, which is not related to my discussion between the different sizes (final gear ratios) of the tire (totally separate issue). The size of the flywheel stays the same, but only changes in weight, which allows the engine to spin up faster. The science lesson was related to using an identical engine with the same components but changing the wheels (not the flywheel). Since we are on this topic, it could be said my engine should have more power because I don't have a heavy flywheel; I have a flexplate instead. However, my engine is putting less power to the wheels because the torque converter is designed to slip. If I had one that locked up sooner and stayed locked during acceleration, I would have as much power as the manual.

[2004ElantraGLS]

Hey all,

I went to the Dyno but I'm not able to scan the sheet into my computer. Check this (http://www.elantraxd.com/forums/showthread.php?p=75475#post75475) thread for details on the HP and TQ.

Regards,
Axel

[FordFasteRR]

holy crap... 136 whp !!!!!!

WOOOOT !!!


congratulations meng, you have the highest SAE WHP with a bone stock engine of any beta motor i've seen. It looks like this powerchip is by far the best mod ... of course, to get the same results as you, the user needs to have all of the basic performance upgrades... :)



http://www.nitrousworld.com/pictures/Dyno2_2004elantragls.jpg

[2004ElantraGLS]

Thanks bro. I like the fact that my torque is so close to my horsepower. I can't wait to see what the Fidanza flywheel will do to the whp!!! Also, if I were using some lightweight 15 inch rims, the numbers would climb even more lol. I'm not sure yet if I'll install this Underdrive Crank Pulley...not comfortable with the idea of my crank journals getting ****ed up due to lack of a harmonic damper.

I also want to get one of your Ported IM/TB packages in the near future....gotta save up for that! In the end, I'd love to hit 150whp!!!!!!!

Regards,
Axel

PS: Here's a detailed list of my power-adding mods

Accord CAI(2 5/8 inch diameter)
Throttlebody Bypass
OBX 4-2-1 Header & Downpipe
2.25 inch Crush Bent exhaust, 30 inch Resonator and Flowmaster 60-Series Muffler
APC Ignition Wires
NGK Iridium Plugs
Gyrex 6-piece Ground Wire Kit
Powerchip ECU Tuning
Royal Purple 5w30? Not sure if this adds power or not.

My exhaust needs an overhaul. Not sure when this will happen but I'm sure it'll add a few hp. Fidanza flywheel is going in, crank pulley is undecided. Ported IM and TB are a future purchase, and a phenolic IM spacer will be installed at that time. Better Ignition wires like MagnaKore or Nology will replace the APCs. And MSD DIS-2 is also planned. All of this coupled with an ideal and linear A/F ratio should put me at or very close to 150whp!!!!! :D

[FordFasteRR]

that sounds like a great plan.

but you forgot 1 thing... adjustable cam sprocket.

:) !!!!! BOOST THAT TORQUE EVEN HIGHER ! YEAH !

[2004ElantraGLS]

that sounds like a great plan.

but you forgot 1 thing... adjustable cam sprocket.

:) !!!!! BOOST THAT TORQUE EVEN HIGHER ! YEAH !

Well I've never heard of anyone doing any cam tuning on a CVVT motor, and I don't want to be the first lol. Not sure if messing with the cams will **** something up.

[FordFasteRR]

good point.


I guess we'll leave those guys alone for now. :)

[tharptroy]

maybe you ougt to try an extrude honed manifold.

also, a 2.75" cai would be a better match to the stock TB, 3" if you have a 58mm.

you'll need to build a proper transition into the throttle body as well.

[FordFasteRR]

maybe you ougt to try an extrude honed manifold.

also, a 2.75" cai would be a better match to the stock TB, 3" if you have a 58mm.

you'll need to build a proper transition into the throttle body as well.


As long as you dont mind waiting for them to port it and ship it back while the car is parked ... ... extrude hone is a great product. ..

[tharptroy]

just buy an extra manifold

[2004ElantraGLS]

Extrude Honed? Sounds expensive lol. What's the difference between that and what Steve is doing? How much of a power difference can be expected?

[FordFasteRR]

i would say the extrude honed ported IM will most likely produce higher flow numbers than my custom hand ported manifold...

however, i do not have any evidence of any xd members having this done with a before & after dyno to compare to anything that I have done.

One point to make is that I have spare manifolds on-hand... so when you buy from me, there is no down time except for the time you would take to install the manifold vs other companies that require you to ship your one and only manifold out to them while they work on it and send it back at their leisure.

:)

Besides, I think ( and most people agree with me ) that it is better to support the hyundai community directly rather than outside companies. In either case, extrude hone has a superior process for porting manifolds and it is the #1 outside vendor choice when it comes to custom porting.

:)

[oregun]

Extrude Honed? Sounds expensive lol. What's the difference between that and what Steve is doing? How much of a power difference can be expected?

In a nutshell, Steve or anyone else besides extrude-hone, can only port out the intake manifold as far as our "straight" cutting burr can reach. You can imagine that it is difficult to reach the bends of the ports. Extrudehone basically "squirts" playdoh with abrasive media into the manifold. The playdoh goes everywhere and polishes all the walls nice and smooth.

It is expensive $365 to have your IM polished. An extra $80 to have the ports gasket matched, and I'm not sure that covers the cost of porting the throttlebody opening (which I believe to be the MOST IMPORTANT PART).

I can see an extra 2-3 hp over a normal port job, but keep in mind. If you don't have a BBTB and port out the Throttlebody opening, the extrude hone process probably won't do anything for you.

http://extrudehone.com/afmpro.html

[slow 2K2GT]

Wow thats quite the process.

[2004ElantraGLS]

Thanks for the info on that, guys, but I think I'll just stick with Steve's Porting Job. Just gotta get the money together. Overall, I'm happy with my current Dyno results. I'll be tuning the A/F ratio more using an SAFC, more than likely. Once I have that done, the Clutch/flywheel will go in and Dynoed!!!

[mrhoaf]

Hey EVOXD.. I just saw your dyno posted.... pretty nice numbers...

But it looks to me like you need to get the 3800 RPM hesitation ECU flash.... it shows up big time on your sheet....

I'm going to get mine done tomorrow (monday)... dealer said it would only cost $25! (I am out of warranty.... this is why I have to pay)

[EVOXD]

What do i tell the dealership? because i have asked them about it and they the guy did not know what i was talking about.

[2004ElantraGLS]

I don't think that "dip" or "peak" was caused by the 3800 stall. Looks more like the Dyno was getting a ****ty pick-up signal. It took my guy several tries to get it right....meanwhile it was spiking up and down all over the place till he got it right.

[Pumbaa]

EVO, I still think it is due to the ECU, remember how I reset the ECU on the second run. Notice how your second run smoothed out.

Ok posted my dyno run, it is funny, I retarded the timing 4 degrees on the second run, then retarded it 8 degrees on the third run. It was an accident. I didn't mean to retard it. LOL I just missidentified what I was doing. It wasn't until the second run on the dyno that I relized what I did. Anyways. The first run just re-affirms Fords suspisions on the ported IM and TB. I rolled out 1whp higher and 1lb/ft wtq lower than the last dyno I did. Also this dyno I was running on 87 octane where the last one was on 91 octane.

[FordFasteRR]

I don't think that "dip" or "peak" was caused by the 3800 stall. Looks more like the Dyno was getting a ****ty pick-up signal. It took my guy several tries to get it right....meanwhile it was spiking up and down all over the place till he got it right.

that dip in the dyno is caused by the ecu's crappy obd2 curves...

to fix that you have to take the car to the dealer and have the ECU re-flashed with an updated program that fixes the problem.

I have not taken mine in yet... but I will do it soon.



And Pumbaa.. as far as your power going down... why the hell didnt you just turn the sprocket the right way in the first place ?

LOL :)

I hope you get a chance to take it back to the dyno and then set it properly once you fix that bearing tensioner problem... :)

[cclngthr]

Once I pull my transmission pan and turn the line pressure adjustment bolt in 1/2 turn, I will redo my dyno. Turning in the adjustment increases the line pressure and will make it shift much firmer.

[oregun]

Well, this might belong in the tranny section, but take some pictures and make a little DIY. I'm sure the other automatic owners would appreciate it

[cclngthr]

The reason why I mentioned it here is because the auto loses 40 hp and by doing the mod gains an instant 30 hp. HOWEVER, there is a danger in this. The tranny pressure values are posted on webtech and if they go over that, the tranny can very easily go bad. Turning it too much will easily make the tranny shift too hard, which will make the mounts go out and throw things off. If the person doing this turns it slightly over the amount, it will easily make things worse. You want a firm shift, but not too firm.

[tharptroy]

if you dont do another dyno, get some before and after track runs...

should cut your ET by like a second

[FordFasteRR]

I wanted to discuss Keyans stock cvvt dyno..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/Keyan/EXD05/stockdyno.jpg


holy crap those numbers are weak :(

and they are SAE corrected... also, it doesnt matter that you started the dyno at 4000 + rpms... it still measured your torque peek because I can see that on the dyno, your torque peeks after 4000 rpms...

now.. this is going to be an awesome start to your future mods..

do 1 mod at a time, and go to the dyno after each one... :)

then post your dyno pics so we can see what the gains are as you go.



.

[Keyan]

The numbers may be weak but I know for a fact it gives more of a kick and is faster than my 01! (see drag race forum for 1/4th mile times)
And that dyno is totally stock...stock airfilter, stock "restrictor tube" (that bell shaped peice in the intake) and I actually have the VIDEO of my dyno and you can see how it was done. It was an outside dyno so there was no fan blowing over my bay...so I think my engine was gasping for air too. (ford can I upload it to nitrousworld? it's 21.9MB lol)

And ford, I have a question for you (and for sed, he can help with the part #)
For troubleshooting an automatic transmission, there is a gear selector you can plug directly into the tranny so you can TS just a specific gear. Well the guy who did my dyno said if I can get one of those he can dyno my car just like a manual. Lock it into 3rd/4th gear (whichever they use to dyno) and just put it to the floor. Is this possible and where can I get one...? :)

[FordFasteRR]

you should be able to put it into 3rd gear manually by using the gear select lever..

on my 99 elantra, there was a button on the shifter that would disable overdrive and force the trans to stay in 3rd gear once you get up there...

lol


also, in your case with the auto, you can have the guys on the dyno set up the run as a multi-gear run and you can just start from 1st gear all the way to whenever the hell you want to stop :)

do that next time.

[mtlelantra]

:bowdown: :bowdown:
I just wanna say THANKS to Keyan for doing all the testing on a stock XD2.
:bowdown: :bowdown:
I have basically the same car except it's an 04 (same color, auto). Hopefully you'll dyno and drag after each mod so that I (or we, all) can get stats on how they help or not... also gives me some way to measure the benefits of the mods and justify why I need them it to my wife! ;)

[ricerrx7]

The reason why I mentioned it here is because the auto loses 40 hp and by doing the mod gains an instant 30 hp. HOWEVER, there is a danger in this. The tranny pressure values are posted on webtech and if they go over that, the tranny can very easily go bad. Turning it too much will easily make the tranny shift too hard, which will make the mounts go out and throw things off. If the person doing this turns it slightly over the amount, it will easily make things worse. You want a firm shift, but not too firm.

Can you please explain how this is going to give you 30hp? All it does is adjust the MLP regulator right? That would make the shifts harder and quicker, but how would that give you more horsepower?

[2004ElantraGLS]

I agree. That's like saying a Short-Throw Shifter adds HP. Maybe we're misunderstanding him.

[Ben Davis]

The reason why I mentioned it here is because the auto loses 40 hp and by doing the mod gains an instant 30 hp. HOWEVER, there is a danger in this. The tranny pressure values are posted on webtech and if they go over that, the tranny can very easily go bad. Turning it too much will easily make the tranny shift too hard, which will make the mounts go out and throw things off. If the person doing this turns it slightly over the amount, it will easily make things worse. You want a firm shift, but not too firm.

I don't think this person knows entirely what they are talking about. Increasing the line pressure will only affect the quality of the shifts. It will not magically give you ANY horsepower. Now I admit I don't know all that much about automatic transmissions, but I can tell you that there is no magic knob on any part of any naturally aspirated motors (you can control boost on turboed/superchagred engines and make more power that way, but I digress) that will magically give you any horsepower. And we're not even talking the engine - we're talking transmissions here!

What I know you can do to auto trannies:
1. Get an upgraded valve body to change the quality of your shifts (quicker to kick down, "firmer" faster shifts, basically what we're hoping to approach with this supposed free mod)
2. Put in a higher stall torque converter. At a basic level, this will make your car launch from stop at a higher RPM, therefore being more in the car's powerband off the line and enabling one to have more a chance to spin the tires off the line in an autobox.
3. Install stronger bands and clutches (if those are even the correct terms) to withstand more horsepower/torque through the tranny.

I'm just as interested as the next guy in cheap/free mods to slightly alter my car's traits, but don't be looking for a knob to "get you back 30 of the 40hp your auto tranny soaks up." You could "get back" a little by install a manual transmission which has inherently less drivetrain loss due to not having a torque converter, or installing lighter weight rims.

Ok, so back to the auto tranny line pressure free mod... :D

[FordFasteRR]

Holy crap...


XDGT03


You are the man. 136 whp .

You beat me big time... 3 whp more...

Now I have a reason to install my OBX crank pulley....


:)

Keep an eye on the dyno thread.

[slow 2K2GT]

Meng I need to hit a dyno, I hate myself. I got the flywheel and some cams, I know they made power but I can only guess how much. *Goes to stand in corner*

[DAILLESTWUN]

Where did his dyno go??

[slow 2K2GT]

its in the Official Dyno Thread, not the Official Dyno Discussion Thread...it messed me up to yesterday.

[DAILLESTWUN]

Yeah, I noticed that too... my bad...I can't wait to get my Exhaust fixed. Since he dynoed @136, Hopefully I'll dyno more since I'll have a full exhaust, Crank pulley, Ported IM, and BBTB over him. But I am autotragic. Not trying to compete, just using as a reference ya know..

[Estopatitiana]

yeah i got some crap #'s the spikes are detonation misfiring according to the guy..i posted another thread in the help section about it

[Cypher]

i'm going to dyno one day but not anytime soon i've only got I/H/E.... you said 118hp... that seems rather horrid... autotragic or stick? did you reset the ecu before each run? why were you running on 92 octane?

[Jfoghino]

All im getting from all of this is that our Elantras dont have the HP that Hyundai says they do? Or is the HP different from 2001 to 2005? I have the 2004 GT manuel tranny.

[Estopatitiana]

i'm going to dyno one day but not anytime soon i've only got I/H/E.... you said 118hp... that seems rather horrid... autotragic or stick? did you reset the ecu before each run? why were you running on 92 octane? its an automatic..i ran 92 for ****s and giggles i really dont know why..i didnt reset the ecu and it set a code right after the dyno..i had 17 inch wheels by the way and they did not put a fan in front of the cai i dont know if any of that would make a dif

[FordFasteRR]

its an automatic..i ran 92 for ****s and giggles i really dont know why..i didnt reset the ecu and it set a code right after the dyno..i had 17 inch wheels by the way and they did not put a fan in front of the cai i dont know if any of that would make a dif


Dude, the dyno shop did not take you or your car seriously.

I've seen this happen 1000 times. And at some dynoes i've been to, the people tried to do the same thing to me.

They usually think that I'm some kind of ricer that doesnt know **** about cars.

They are usually put in their place because I will give them a 12 step program on how I want my car dynoed.


lol

[Cypher]

bigger tires could possibly decrease your hp on the dyno because of a larger rotational mass, ummm a fan could possibly have made a difference, do it again next time but swap for your stock tires, run on 89 octane and reset the ecu i bet you can see 120 hp

whats the 12 step program??? i'd like to know in case i ever dyno!

[FordFasteRR]

....

whats the 12 step program??? i'd like to know in case i ever dyno!


it was a figure of speech... but in reality it would go something like this:


1. I will drive the car on the dyno (I know it better than you do).
2. I will reset the ecu before we dyno (and between each run).
3. You will not touch my engine, or anyone else here for that matter.
4. You will fire up the dyno recorder when I say so (its my time and my money).
5. I will carefully monitor you when you hook up the ignition sensor.
6. If I don't like where you placed it, I will tell you to move it to where I want it.
7. You will strap the car down using the tow hooks, not the control arms (idiot).
8. You will allow me to review the dyno information on your computer for as long as I need to.
9. You will print the dyno sheets that I select with the resolution angles that I want.
10. You will print the air/fuel ratio on each sheet.
11. If your air fuel ratio sensor is broken, I will only pay half price for the entire dyno session (the f-cking a/f is more important than the dyno graph itself idiot!).
12. You will give me time to adjust my fuel trims between dyno runs, and time to analyze each dyno run before I make another adjustment.
13. You will place the cooling fan(s) where I want them to be placed.



ok hows that for starters ?



Most shops will try to bully you like they are the master of the dyno ... when in reality they want you in and out as quick as possible with as little hassle as they can get....


I hassle them to the last drop. every time.

Its my money and my time... so if they want my business, they will have to bend over backwards or I just won't go there anymore,... there are like 20 dynos in south florida..........

[Cypher]

lol ford you're awesome man i'll keep all those in mind should i ever dyno!

[Cypher]

All im getting from all of this is that our Elantras dont have the HP that Hyundai says they do? Or is the HP different from 2001 to 2005? I have the 2004 GT manuel tranny.

the numbers dealerships and such give you is at the crank. 01-03 are rated at 135hp to the crank and the xd2s are 138 hp at the crank

[GTSTISL]

they also have a 3% margin of error, which means they jack the horsepower up a bit, in our case about 4hp above their BEST run...i believe

[Jfoghino]

I see, some manufacturers actually give WHP. So i was confused as to what the hyundai is...

[Cypher]

i was looking around the dyno thread and i had a question... troy had 2.5" cai and 2.25" exhaust with plugs and one step colder plugs and i think ground wires and put down a max of 127whp... i have 2.25" catback with headers, 2.75" cai, 8.5mm wires and new plugs, along with a lighter weight flywheel... is it safe to venture that i am putting down 130whp??? i am just curious...

[DAILLESTWUN]

Sorry, but I posted this in the dyno thread first by mistake. But this is where it goes lol. On to the post....

Well if all goes well I should be dynoing tomorrow. It's 3 pulls for $40.00 I'm going to do it the first time, then reset the ECU and do it again. The third will be just for fun.
Here are my mods:
SRI
Ported IM
BBTB
Lightweight Crank Pulley
Ground Wire kit
NGK Plugs
8.8mm wires
KORE 4-2-1 Header and 2 1/4" straight pipe to the muffler.(No cats)
I think that's all. Maybe I'm forgetting some thing. Also, I'm Autotragic so let's see what happens, Any suggestions. Should I have my car as light as possible or does it not matter. Will my 18's slow me down that much?
I would be happy with 130whp but being that I got an auto we'll see. Wish me luck guys...

[Keyan]

18s are heavy and are a bigger rotational mass, so yes they will slow you down alot...

I'm going to guess you'll see like 128-130whp. We'll see.

[GodisintheTV]

i say you put the 15's on to dyno, those 18 are gonna kill your numbers. you should also get something to test out on your third run

[DAILLESTWUN]

Unfortunately, I have one 15 on my rear passenger side since I cracked one of my 18's. I only have 2 fifteens left right now and one of them has a flat and the other tire sucks.lol So i'm, gonna have to go with the 18's. As I said, If I hit 125-130 I will be happy. And if it's lower I will be very disappointed.

[GodisintheTV]

see if ford or sed will lend you stockers for the dyno.

yeah i have about the same mods as you minus headers, and a few different things here and there but im auto too so im curious what your putting down.

[DAILLESTWUN]

I woudl but I got school till 11:30 so I won't be getting to the dyno till at least 12:30 and I don't know if there will be a line or something...

[ricerrx7]

Don't change wheels for the run. Run it exactly the way you would on the street. Then you will know how much power you are actually putting down.

[DAILLESTWUN]

Well, here it is... I'm not sure how to read this crap...lol I know the first page has my first 2 runs on 3rd gear.
1st run: 127HP & 128TQ
2nd run: 128HP & 130TQ (after ECU reset)
http://www.nitrousworld.com/pictures/Dyno runs 1&2.jpg

3rd run: They did it with all gears. If you notice the spikes it is when the car shifts to the next gear. This is the one I'm confused with so help me out on how to read this and what it means. Also tell me if my air/fuel ratio;s are ok.
http://www.nitrousworld.com/pictures/Dyno runs 1&2 001.jpg

[Keyan]

****, max torque on the 3rd run. That's ****ed up, badly. But it makes sence cause of the spikes between gears.

Oh, and nice HP #s on the AUTOTRAIC

REPRESENT! :) lol

[05xd]

Nice numbers man.Thats pretty impressive for a automatic

[DAILLESTWUN]

Thanks guys. I'm still a little stumped on what that second sheet means cuz it say mak HP 133 and max TQ 150. on the bottom of the page...

[Keyan]

the torque is so high because of the jumps during the gear changes. the actual highest torque point is actually around 85mph. Take a look.

[DAILLESTWUN]

Well I was hoping from 125-130 and I got it almost right at the middle. Now I'm wondering if I should get the powerchip or not....hmmmm

[FordFasteRR]

Thanks for posting the dyno !

Remember what I said about getting that place to give you an SAE dyno sheet ?

That sheet is in STD numbers. so actual SAE #'s will be lower by 1-5 whp and 1-5 ft.lb.


Next, to answer your question about the 150 tq, it was answered before and its just a measurement of the spike between gear shifts.

The actual peek torque is on the original 3rd gear runs... =)

Either way, congrats !!!!!!!!!

(I have been to this dyno shop, and like I told you on the phone, they always print in STD unless you force them to give you the SAE #'s... I had the same problem and it took 3 times going back to them to get the right sheet ! LOL ).

[DAILLESTWUN]

I told them to do it SAE and they said that was how it was done...I just noticed that mine does say std...damn..lol I hope it's just 1hp difference then..lol

[FordFasteRR]

I told them to do it SAE and they said that was how it was done.......l

Thats what they told me and I just kept telling them that this dyno is completely useless to me in STD since all of my other dynoes were done in SAE ... lol

Besides, all they have to do is click on one option to output the results in SAE ... lazy bums. lol

[FordFasteRR]

I just wanted to discuss estopitipatlwhtrkjsdklsf's dyno thread. lol =)

The first dyno is the clean one, no major spikes or gear shifting lunacy ...

It is showing 118 whp peek, but in STD #'s which roughly translates into about 114 whp SAE . =)

Not bad without an ecu reset ! I swear you would see 5 whp gain with a clean reset on the same dyno..


BE SURE TO GET SAE #'s NEXT TIME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Congrats ! At least some people around here still dyno their cars !

[Estopatitiana]

i plan on going again this spring..ill keep that in mind, thanks

[DAILLESTWUN]

What is that second dyno sheet about with the 134???


Its the same thing you had, a spike between shifts on the autofragil transmission.

=)

[Cypher]

i'm going to attempt to dyno this summer... so maybe i'll have some numbers to post then for you ford.

[Estopatitiana]

yeah the spikes were from my weak little tranny...did you guys see the mph though? 120 baby 3rd gear

[Cypher]

4mynikka... was that on an SAE corrected dynojet? what are all your mods?

[wagonofhell]

yeah that is a good mph with no drag or rolling resistence. the dyno is good for hp and tq #'s but i would not trust the speed readings on it.
it is wheel speed not car speed if you know what i mean

[4mynikka]

4mynikka... was that on an SAE corrected dynojet? what are all your mods?

Yes, that was on a SAE corrected dyno and all my mods are on my sig. The only thing I don't have installed yet are the KYB's and Eibachs.

[tharptroy]

so does that finally dispel the weapon R myth?

you made 3 less horsepower than my car did with an intake and exhaust.

[4mynikka]

so does that finally dispel the weapon R myth?

you made 3 less horsepower than my car did with an intake and exhaust.

well you had a CAI which is SUPPOSE to be alot better than SRI and A full CAT back exhaust.... I had only the intake and exhaust running from the stock Resonator. I just wanted to show the weapon r was not a complete POS. You have to give it that.

BTW your max hp was 127.6 and torque is 130.6

mine was 126.84whp and 128.70 torque, where do you see 3whp?

[tharptroy]

well you had a CAI which is SUPPOSE to be alot better than SRI and A full CAT back exhaust.... I had only the intake and exhaust running from the stock Resonator. I just wanted to show the weapon r was not a complete POS. You have to give it that.

BTW your max hp was 127.6 and torque is 130.6

mine was 126.84whp and 128.70 torque, where do you see 3whp?

about the whp numbers, i was just going from memory, so I was mistaken.

the weapon intake is just overpriced for what it is, when you can get the same gains from an ebay intake...there certianly doesnt seem to be much backing for their extravagant claims.

[FordFasteRR]

The last few dyno's are great.

I see potential for more power in both cars...

Gains can be seen by freeing up the exhaust. Getting rid of the 2nd cat might give a hp or 2. ..

I think both cars reset the ecu on the dyno but I'm not sure... if you didn't there might be a little more whp hidden in there. (if not then the #'s are still good for the mods).


Keep up the good work !!!!!!!

[skeetre]

I didn't reset the ECU. The guy showed me another Elantra's sheet.. and we were within 1-2 hp. My SAE corrected scores were only 1 hp off.. and they were actually Higher! I don't have the 2nd cat, I put in the Evofusion catback exhaust, and it gets rid of the one cat. (or did you mean, get rid of Both cats?)

He did show me that same elantra after reflashing the ecu, and it gained about 10hp and 12 torque lbs

In a couple weeks I'll post again with the scores after installing that turbo I got off you fordfasterr!

[Cypher]

why did you see better results in 3rd? i thought typically you see higher hp numbers on a 4th gear pull?

[XDGT03]

The more mods the less that ecu reset seems to help. Especially on the 5 speeds. I dyno'd after the tb and im p&p. I reset the ecu as I had done the before and lost hp and tq. I have not yet gone back to dyno without the reset.

[skeetre]

why did you see better results in 3rd? i thought typically you see higher hp numbers on a 4th gear pull?

Normally they're done in 3rd gear. Some cars are better in 3rd, a few are better in 4th, he said usually in asian cars 3rd and 4th are pretty close.

But I guess the standard comparison is 3rd gear.

I wanted to dyno yesterday, but the shop had someone scheduled at 3 and another at 4, and I didn't have time after that with the fiancee coming over.

But.. I did get my turbo timer installed, pics coming in a little bit.

[ArunSenior04]

Post about Ford's Dynos...

One thing Ive always wondered, is for the second dyno, where you gained 4hp/5tq, is that just from resetting the ecu? On your first dyno, you never reset the ecu. I dunno if Im explaining this right.

(The only mod variables for first two dynos were muffler and ecu resetting)

1st Dyno: Magnaflow Straight Thru Muffler (NO RESET of ECU)
128hp/121tq

1st Dyno: Straight Thru + Fuel Tuning (-4%) (No reset of ecu)
130hp/121tq

2nd Dyno: Chambered Muffler (No Reset of ECU)
123hp/117tq

2nd Dyno: Chambered Muffler (Reset of ECU)
128hp/121tq

2nd Dyno: Chambered Muffler + Fuel Tuning (-4%) (After reset of ecu)
132hp/126tq

The only reason I ask is because alot of people say that chambered is the best for our cars, because Ford's dyno says there is a gain. But according to the dynos, only after resetting the ecu on the chambered exhaust, were you able to run what you ran on the straight thru (w/o resetting ecu) dyno. So my main question is, if you had reset the ecu on your first dyno run, what would you have ran? If your gaining hp/tq from resetting the ecu, the 1st dyno readings (muffler and fuel tuning) would have been higher than the second dyno readings, if a reset was done.

Possible Outcomes if a Reset was done???

1st Dyno: Magnaflow Straight Thru Muffler
134hp/124tq (5hp/4tq gain from reset)

1st Dyno: Straight Thru + Fuel Tuning (-4%)
137hp/129tq (3hp/5tq from tuning)