Want to go Diesel

[felixr]

Hi, So i have been thinking about going diesel for my next car. . . was wondering if you guys had any suggestions on cars. this would be a daily driver for mostly my wife but i would drive it sometimes too. i want power and speed so nothing like the elantra or 4 cyl kinda crap( no offense to the elantra, i just mean, if im gonna be paying for a car for the next 5 yrs i want to feel my money under my foot every single time i stomp it. so over 200hp and torque. i would LIKE to be able to leave a patch (to give you an idea of what i mean with power) i would like something with a little class and luxury at a reasonable price and good/light weight ratio. no mercedez tanks and i dont think i would like a jetta or passat. could be used must be 4 doors but not too heavy and under 30k. ok thanks in advance . . . pics would be great.

let me know . . . go

[hyunelan2]

First off, how does your wife feel about driving a stinky deisel car?

And by ruling out Mercedes, and VW - you've pretty much run out of diesel options.

But not really, here's a list::

http://www.gobiodiesel.org/diesel-vehicles.html

[FordFasteRR]

Diesel cars suck.

They stink, and they run dirty and sound like crap too ...

Don't waste your money on that crap !!!!!!!

[hyunelan2]

^^^I agree. You really can't have gas milage and high-performance, not even in diesel applications. Decide what's more important. If you need milage, get a hybrid (recommend Accord). If you want power (without V8 gas milage), get a high-powered V6.

If it weren't for semi-trucks, diesel wouldn't even exist anymore. I laugh everytime I'm next to a diesel Jetta at a stoplight and hear its rar-rar-rar-rar engine.

[Kyrol]

You said no to a MB but if you think the car sounds/run dirty go test drive one. Other then the lower rpms I couldn't belive it was a diesel. I think 2008 or sometime around then they are introducing the new clean diesel and we may get some of bmw's cars and alot of others.

[hyunelan2]

It may seem clean in the refinement of MB, but coming from someone with years of experience around diesel vehicles (me), diesel fuel is just dirty. Plain and simple.

[2001GLS]

You don't want a diesel. Your only real choices are VW & Mercedes. Their drivetrains are reliable but they have a lot of electrical & interior quality problems. Neither has fared well in initial quality surveys in the past few years either. You want power which is exactly the opposite of what you'll get with diesel & still get any reasonable gas mileage. The reason Jettas & Beetles get 50+mpg is because they have engines with just over 100hp. If you can find a diesel with over 200hp it will cost you some real money. It sounds like you want V8 performance with 4 cylinder fuel economy. That's a pretty tall order. I agree you need to decide what is more important to you first & go from there.

[felixr]

after doing a little reasearch on my own and reading your posts i agree that i will not find a powerhouse diesel engine with high gas mileage

eventhough one of the couple of reasons i wanted a diesel was to make my own bio diesel, the savings doesnt seem to make that much of a difference when you consider i would have to go out and find the veggie oil and not to mention i would have to buy the bio fuel maker thingy which probably costs about 4 or 5k which is about what i would save a year . . . then factor in again the lack of performance, the weight which kills the handling performance dreams i have a la bmw for instance.

anyway, i think that what i seek would be better found in a light powerful v6 german automobile or suv. . . or even something asian . . who knows . . . .gas powered that is. the end product i choose will have to be a direct result of intense test driving of several vehicles.

vehicles i had in mind:
bmw x5
bmw x3
3 series
MB ML series
C class
Honda Passport
Ford Escape Hybrid
Nissan Pathfinder Armada
Infinity FX35
Infinity Pathfinder Armedroberryda

EDIT: Added cars i forgot

in no particular order . . . any ideas/comments on those?
thanks for helping me decide by the way

[hyunelan2]

There's some big SUVs in there, kinda opposite of the initial want of a performance vehicle of fuel saver... those won't really give you either

[felixr]

i understand i will lose fuel economy but the space and practicality of the vehicle is more important when it comes to suv's

[mtlelantra]

Well, you said you wanted something under $30k, >200 HP? You want a car or SUV?
My friend's inlaws have a Nissan Murano and they love it... for cars, Infinity G35 is on the $ borderline, but that would be my top choice... Acura TSX... Why not a new Sonata V6?
I think now that you've dropped the diesel idea, you have a LOT of choice... Maxima, Mazda 6, Audi A4 for cars, just to name a few you didn't...

[exsailor]

Diesels are not noisy inside but are outside. Your neighbors will love you if you leave it running in the drive or start up early morning/late night.
More problems with fuel with diesels also. My friends have them and are always having filter problems due water in fuel etc.
Is the economy worth it?

[felixr]

maxima is an option so is/are tsx and g35 . . i wouldnt horribly mind a sonata but wifey doesnt want another hyundai(the hatred transends lol) mazda 6 . . . even though im a ford guy, no thanks, would like more power than that. A4? . . . hmmm i dont know dont want any more 4bangers . . . any other ideas?

[hyunelan2]

I think you first need to decide what KIND of vehicle you want. Do you want an SUV, a hybrid SUV, or a traditional Sedan. Can't really compare apples to oranges to bananas.

[felixr]

well its about these two major things asside from fuel economy: room and power

i think apples oranges and bananas all have their own amounts of each that can be compared

[hyunelan2]

Right, they all have features that CAN be compared, like stereos, leather, basic features like cruise control, etc. But you can't start comparing them on a 'fair' basis of fuel economey, power, room, etc. when you're talking completely different classes of vehicles.

How does your wife feel? Since she'll be the main driver of the vehicle. Does she want an SUV? I know a lot of my buddies' wives love their little Jettas and such, and would never want to drive an SUV. My wife is opposite, and loves the SUV and wouldn't trade it for a sedan.

[BobMs_wht2k2]

My ideal vehicle is a 99 Tahoe 4wd 4dr 6.5TD. Perfect hauler, 24mpg at 75-80mph.
I've been around and owned diesels my entire life. If it were up to me all of my vehicles would be diesels, but I don't like the european options with the exception of he previous generation Jetta.

The statement about you can't have power and economy in a diesel is ludicrous. There are quite a few custom tuners for the new Duramax that will turn out 450hp and 850lb/ft pf torque with the push of a button and return 22-23 mpg in an 8000lb truck with 4wd.

[felixr]

hyunelan, she wants an suv. she is a small girl and wants to squash small cars like bugs lol
she also wants a place to put lots of groceries and that antique bakers rack that she found in a store somewhere while still being able to put the car seat in and buckle the baby in without bumping her head of forcing her hand between the carseat and groceries . . .

bobMs . . . sure, of COURSE even . . . but my wife's not gonna drive a pick up around . . (unless its from the 20's she says)

i'll leave the 450hp towing and mudding hot rod truck to me though lol (that's actually what im working on now)

[BobMs_wht2k2]

felixr, tahoes are the SUV for gm. They are a shrter suburban, similar to expeditions only they were out much earlier.

[felixr]

yeah but chevy sucks pirate booty lol

you buy a chevy and you might as well do like your avatar. FORD BABY! lol

[lmorgan5]

My brother bought a Ranger... lemon... got his money back, other brother bought a focus... lemon... got his money back. Outcome: Probably just very unlucky, however, Ford will never get any of my money :D

[southpawboston]

damn, did they take back both cars under lemon law? how did he get is money back?

[nogo2.0]

chevy recked the diesel world back in the 80's with the 5.7 and the 6.2 and 6.5 are just bigger versions of that crap. Get a 7.3lpsd Excursion. Make your own fuel from fryer greese (about $.70 usd per gallon). I never had trouble with water in the fuel. MAybe try and find a toyota corralla diesel from the early 80's those are good cars.
ford and dodge don't make there own diesels; one of chevys biggest mistakes. Those allison trannies in the newer chevys are not even made by allison.

[2001GLS]

While I find the quality of both GM & Ford stuff lacking in general, I think GM is a much better pick between the two. Had two Fords that were total junk, Ford will never see another dime from me. Hyundai has 1,000 times better quality than Ford already!

[nogo2.0]

you just got to know what you're buying with any manufactor

[felixr]

i saw a passport commercial yesterday . . . says they have 255 hp???? nice all wheel drive too . . .

[Figjam74]

Used Touareg with the 5 Litre V-10? Doesn't look like diesel is even an option on new models.

[kylemorg]

Since this thread is all generalities from the start:

Generally more horsepower/torque/vehicle size, the less fuel economy.

Diesel powered vehicles are generally more efficient than gas gallon per gallon, but if the air cleaner and engine aren't kept clean, the exhaust can be dirtier in terms of large particles emitted.

If you're interested in increasing power on a diesel, search for "diesel propane injection"; some trucks can gain up to 50HP, and the propane is actually good for the engine (helps lubricate), unlike nitrous for a gas engine.

[felixr]

ive been THINKING about getting a diesel pick up . . . not sure yet

[Dave666Thomas]

Try one of the newer A4's they can eat some 6 cylinders for lunch.

[chouonrow]

I only have read a few post not the 50 others :abovelol:
but.... only one thing...

Americans have gas very cheap and want huge engines... that drink gas fast. Here in Spain, Europe ... as the gas is expensive, diesel cars are 49% of the sells here. And only one thing to say... This is EXD.com :cool: ? :D
I have an ELANTRA DIESEL!! and im very happy with it XD
if u like i can post the technical characteristics

[felixr]

haha . . . you "el bastardo" . . . just kidding, please tell us how you like your diesel and how well it runs, how fast, how much power etc. noisy? stinky? dirty? ever thought of biodiesel?

[chouonrow]

el bastardo??? only u know this word in spanish :abovelol:
IM TH3 ****ING CR4CK WITH MY ELANTRA DIESEL
first of all... a gas car always will be a gas car... but if u want to spend less money..... get a diesel

my elantra diesel: :cool:

2.0 CRDI Common Rail Direct Inyection
16 valves
17,7:1
cv/rpm -> 112/4000
kg.m/rpm -> 24/1800-3000
Max speed -> 190 Km/h
0 km/h to 100 km/h -> 11.7 sec

and this is one paper that i scaned
http://www.telefonica.net/web/grandelibre/ELANTRA.jpg

noisy? -> only a few more than a gas engine... but itsnt a problem for me..
stinky? -> yeah u are a real "BASTARDO" XD
dirty? -> ???? HELLO? what do you want to say with "dirty"? i clean it all weeks XD :abovelol:

What its BIODIESEL???

[nogo2.0]

Ok you guys asked for it with your dirty little gas minds....

- written by : Tim Basaker
12/01/00

Diesel Engines and the American Automotive Industry
The vast majority of cars sold today in the United States are powered by an internal combustion engine. Of these, over 99% of the cars sold in America are powered by a gasoline engine. The remaining 1/3 of 1% are primarily pickup trucks. These are powered by a diesel engine. There are diesel-powered cars, as well; for instance the Volkswagen Jetta TDi and the Mercedes-Benz E-300D. However, the diesel engine, which is unknown to many people and disliked by many more, is truly the logical choice for an automotive power plant. This is for three reasons. First, contrary to popular belief, diesel engines are better for the environment than comparable gasoline engines (that is, to say, an engine built for the same purpose in the same vehicle). Second, diesel engines, as a whole, are less expensive to operate than comparable gasoline engines. Third, for their size and economy, many diesel engines have more engine power than comparable gasoline engines.
Diesels and the Environment
When most people hear about diesel engines, one of the first thoughts that pops into many minds is the image of a large 18 wheel tractor-trailer pulling along the highway with a large cloud of black smoke in it’s wake. However, in spite of the visible exhaust smoke, diesels are, in nearly all fields, cleaner-burning than gas engines. The following is from a report by Jake Russell, compiled from an EPA study. Each column shows a factor of which the amount of pollutants produced are decreased between an average gasoline engine and an average diesel engine (for instance, carbon monoxide (listed below) production is over 30 times greater in a gasoline engine as compared to a diesel engine). Numbers with a minus sign in front signify a pollutant where the production rate is increased in an average diesel engine.
Unburnt Hydrocarbon: 5.8
Carbon Monoxide: 36.7
Nitrous Oxide (NOx): -0.9
Butadiene: 20.6
Benzene: 13.9
Formaldehyde: -0.7
Acetaldehyde: -0.9
Ethene: 4.5
Propene: 11.2
Isobutane: 3.2
Toulene: 16.6
Ozone : 8.8
Each one of these pollutants is potentially dangerous to humans. And, except for NOx, formaldehyde, and acetaldehyde, each one of these is reduced drastically in diesel engines. And the three that are increased are increased in a very minuscule amount. Furthermore, on average, a diesel engine will consume less fuel per mile driven than a similar gasoline engine. For instance, the 6.9 litre (420 ci) V-8 diesel engine that is in the van I drive can go approximately 15 miles for every gallon burned. On the other hand, a typical 6.6 litre (400 ci) V-8 gasoline engine will only go 8 to 10 miles for every gallon of fuel burned. Diesels consume fewer natural resources, and burn the natural resources it does take in more efficiently, with a lesser environmental impact.
Diesels and Price
There are two reasons that diesel engines cost less to operate than gasoline engines. One is the simple fact that diesels are more fuel-efficient than similar gasoline engines. Volkswagen makes a 4-cylinder diesel that is available in the Jetta, Golf, and the new version of the venerable Beetle. They also have a 4-cylinder gasoline engine that is a similar engine displacement size (the gasoline engine is 2.0 litres (121 ci) and the diesel engine is 1.9 litres (116 ci)). The VW gasoline engine has an EPA estimated fuel economy rating of 24 miles to a gallon in town, and 31 miles to a gallon on the highway. The VW diesel engine has an EPA estimated fuel economy rating of 42 miles to a gallon in town, and 49 miles to a gallon on the highway. (6) This is a considerable savings, considering that, under normal circumstances, diesel fuel is less expensive than the low-grade gasoline (it is interesting to note that diesel fuel is actually a by-product of the production of gasoline). The second is that diesel engines are built more robustly (heavy-duty internal parts), have fewer moving parts (primarily due to the absence of an ignition system), and are therefore less likely to break down than similar gasoline engines. A typical gasoline engine will run for between 100,000 and 150,000 miles without any major engine work. On the other hand, the 5.9 litre (359 ci) Cummins turbo diesel engine can go an average of 300,000 miles before any major engine work. (5) Furthermore, I have spoken with people who claim to have put over 1 million miles on their diesel engines without any major engine work. Diesels have always been known for their longevity. According to people I’ve spoken to who drive large trucks for a living, this is in fact the primary reason (along with fuel economy) that large tractor-trailers use diesel engines. A gasoline engine could pull the load, were the engine big enough. However, it would consume a lot of gasoline and would not last past 100,000 miles. Large truck diesels routinely last over 500,000 miles without major engine work, according to people I’ve spoken with.
Diesels and Power
Diesel engines have always been known as "stump pullers" (that is to say, able to put a lot of pulling power into a situation). While horsepower numbers may not show this well, overall, diesels are more powerful than similarly sized gasoline engines. According to a brochure from Dodge, the 5.9 litre (360 ci) gasoline engine puts out a maximum of 245 horse power, and 335 ft-lbs of torque. The Cummins 5.9 litre (359 ci) diesel, on the other hand, puts out 245 horsepower as well, but puts out 505 ft-lbs of torque. Both these engines are available in Dodge’s line of ¾ ton and 1 ton trucks. The same brochure gives maximum gross combination weight ratings (the weight of the truck and a trailer together). For a 1-ton truck, the maximum GCWR is 15,000 pounds with the 5.9 litre gasoline engine. With the 5.9 litre Cummins diesel, however, the GCWR is raised to 21,500 pounds. Other than the different engines, the trucks are similar. (11) Ford is very much similar. According to their brochure, as well as their website, the 5.4 litre gasoline engine puts out 260 horsepower and 350 ft-lbs of torque.

[nogo2.0]

The 7.3 litre (444 ci) "Powerstroke" diesel puts out 235 horsepower and 500 ft-lbs of torque. As with Dodge, these engines are both available in Ford’s line of ¾ and 1-ton trucks. With a 1-ton truck and the 5.4 litre gasoline engine, the maximum trailer weight (different from the GCWR because it does not include the weight of the truck itself) is 9,300 pounds. With the 7.3 litre diesel, the maximum trailer weight is raised up to 13,600 pounds. (7)(8) That difference may seem relatively small, given how big the initial numbers are, but 4,000 pounds can make a big difference when pulling trailers.
Diesels and Critics
There are three groups of people who are against diesel engines. One group believes that diesel engines are bad for the environment. The California Air Resource Board (CARB) is part of this group. According to a Volkswagen dealer, they have even forced Volkswagen as well as Mercedes Benz to cease importing diesel-powered cars into the state of California for this reason. In one context, it could be thought that diesels are bad for the environment. However, compared to the primary alternative (gasoline), diesels are considerably cleaner. Except for nitrous oxide, formaldehyde, and acetaldehyde, diesels put out far fewer pollutants than gasoline engines. Gasoline engines put out 5.8 times as much hydrocarbons, 8.8 times as much ozone, and a staggering 36.7 times as much carbon monoxide as diesel engines. (4) Furthermore, diesel engines consume less fuel as a whole than gasoline engines do. (4)(6)
A second group says that diesel exhaust is carcinogenic. Again, the CARB is at the forefront of this group, and, in fact, the CARB originated the belief that diesel exhaust creates a serious cancer risk. However, the EPA doesn’t agree with the CARB’s findings completely. As Dieselnet News states, "The EPA’s position on quantitative cancer risk assessment is in contradiction to the findings of the California Air Resources Board (ARB), which has established unit risk estimates for cancer from diesel exhaust particulates. The ARB estimates are based on some old railroad worker studies, which were later found unsuitable for such purpose by the EPA." The article continues to say that "no specific cancer unit risk estimate for diesel exhaust is adopted or recommended in the EPA assessment." (3) In short, contrary to the CARB’s statement that diesel exhaust is a cause for lung cancer, the EPA doesn’t have enough information to make that claim.
The third group is primarily made up of individual consumers who have either had a bad experience with diesel engines or prefer the performance factor of gasoline engines. It is true that gasoline engines are able to accelerate vehicles at a much higher rate than diesel engines. This is from personal experience. The likelihood of that changing is small. However, the people who have had bad experiences with diesel engines happened to be unlucky. In the late 1970’s and early 1980’s, car manufacturers, most notable General Motors, experimented with diesel engines. GM went so far as to take their 5.7 litre (350 ci) gas engine and convert it to diesel. (1) The results were disastrous. The engine was not designed to handle the extra stress associated with diesel engines, and failures were exceedingly common. Cylinder head gaskets would fail often, and sometimes even internal parts, such as crankshafts and piston connecting rods, would break. Many people, after buying one of these "350 diesel" powered cars, swore to never buy diesel, or General Motors, or both, again. This engine, which was an embarrassing fluke, almost single-handedly ruined the diesel reputation in America. I have spoken to many people who have owned this engine and feel this way about it. It is sad to say that, for many of these people, the "350 diesel" was the only experience they have ever had with the diesel engine. People should understand that not all diesels are like the "350 diesel" was, and give the diesel engine another chance. Europe was fortunately spared the embarrassment of a fluke like this. As shown in Jake Russell’s report, diesel cars have grown to command almost half of the automotive market in some European countries, such as France. (4)
Diesel engines are better for the environment, have more power for their relative size, and are more reliable as compared to gasoline engines. In theory, everyone should see that and be rushing out to get one. However, between false assumptions and bad experiences, people in the United States still tend to shy away. The time has come for a change. A change to a machine that’s cleaner, more reliable, and more powerful. Hopefully, people in the United States will see this soon.
End Notes
1. Grosser, Morton; "Diesel: The Man and the Engine" 1978
2. Patterson, D.J.; and Henein, N.A.; "Emissions from Combustion Engines and Their Control" 1972
3. Unknown author; "EPA Health Assessment Document for Diesel Exhaust approved by the CASAC panel" October 19th, 2000 "http://www.dieselnet.com/news/0010epa.html"
4. Russell, Jake; "Americans Should Invest in Light-Duty Diesels More" 1998 (est.) "http://www.chesco.com/~rosenberry/diesel/diesel1.htm"
5. Daimler-Chrysler; "Dodge Ram Power – Cummins Turbo" 2000 "http://www.4adodge.com/ram-truck/power/feature2.html"
6. Volkswagen; "Volkswagen Comparator" 2000 "http://www.vw.com/compare/index.htm"
7. Ford Motor Company; "Ford Motor Company – Home Page" 2000 "http://www.ford.com/"
8. Ford Motor Company; "2001 RV & Trailer Towing Guide" 2000 (brochure)
9. Ford Motor Company; "Power Stroke Diesel V8" 2000 (brochure)
10. Ford Motor Company; "2001 F-150, F-250/350, Ranger, E-Series" 2000 (brochure)
11. Daimler-Chrysler; "2001 Ram" 2000 (brochure)

[burkej62]

^^^I agree. You really can't have gas milage and high-performance, not even in diesel applications. Decide what's more important. If you need milage, get a hybrid (recommend Accord). If you want power (without V8 gas milage), get a high-powered V6.

If it weren't for semi-trucks, diesel wouldn't even exist anymore. I laugh everytime I'm next to a diesel Jetta at a stoplight and hear its rar-rar-rar-rar engine.



Hahaha ... no offense but I know people with the Cummins turbo diesel in their rams and all but one can beat my stock elantra in the quarter mile and red light to redlight .. They are mildly modified all bolt on parts and chips .. they smoke and are loud yes but getting smoked by a pick up really gets ya thinking .. I will inquire about if he has a dyno slip .. he claims 520 hp and 800 somehting torque ..

[felixr]

that would be accurate burkej62. and thats with either not all the modifications or a lower name brand of chip. the banks on a cummins ram with the modified turbo can reach 1000hp torque. im switching my truck to a diesel soon. gas prices are ridiculous. and while diesel prices have soared to ridiculous numbers, i can still go another week with the same tank while my gas truck would have to fill up already. diesel lasts longer, these engines suck up less fuel than gas engines.

the only reason diesel isnt mainstream is because there is too much money to be lost on gas engine maintenance.

and cause they're more expensive engines because they are coveted.

[Catfish]

It's funny to read what most of you think about diesel cars.
In Europe, especially in germany, diesel cars become more and more popular.
The storys about diesels being stinky, dirty and noisy are antiquated. Modern common-rail-turbo-diesels are as clean as gas-engines, run so smooth that you will never know if you're in a diesel or gas car and the noise is so little above gas engines that you even don't notice it!
If you want a smooth, clean and powerful diesel car, get a BMW 530d! Okay, the VW diesels are loud from the outside, but very reliable. The cleanest diesels are offered by Peugeot (french brand, are they sold in the US?).

And by the way: Audi uses the first diesel car in the 24-Hours of Le Mans this year, the Audi R10 TDI with 650 HP and 1100 Nm torque!
Audi R10 TDI LeMans (http://www.audi.com/audi/com/en1/experience/motorsport/Le_Mans_up_to_date.html)

[RELAXD]

get a diesel expedition. they are frekin huge!!!!

not to mention diesels run forever. my friend had a diesel vw rabbit with 350,000miles on it

diesel prices are also more steady than gas prices. if you really watch diesel prices for a week or two, it only goes up or down a few cents. gas prices on the other hand change in a heartbeat.

peugeots are sold in america.....

Peugeot Motors of America Inc.
Overlook at Great Notch
150 Clove Rd
Little Falls, New Jersey 07424

[jh0n]

Okay, I realise felixr wants an SUV, but what catfish says is very true, particularly about the Peugoet diesel cars, they are so good it`s scarey. I would have seriously considered a turbo diesel variant of both the Hyundai`s I`ve owned if they were sold in my country, but only cause I`m a miserable old coot and to me economy is the performance of the new century. I would really like a dual cab 2 wheel drive truck if they weren`t harsh riding over priced and as aero dynamic as out houses.

[hyunelan2]

Diesel is not the answer. Here's some quotes from an article by the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS)

On the burning of a finite fossil fuel:
It should be noted, however, that it takes about 25% more oil to make a gallon of diesel fuel than a gallon of gasoline, so we should really look at how a vehicle does on fuel efficiency in terms of "oil equivalents." Thus, we need to adjust the mileage claims for diesel vehicles downward by about 20% when comparing them to gasoline-powered vehicles

on pollution:
when it comes to smog-forming pollutants and toxic particulate matter, also known as soot, today's diesels are still a lot dirtier than the average gasoline car.
To address diesel's emissions problems, tougher emissions rules are coming into effect. To meet the tougher pollution standards, high-tech diesel engines need low-sulfur diesel fuel. Unfortunately, US Department picture of refinery of Energy modeling has shown this fuel to be more oil- and carbon-intensive than reformulated gasoline.

Making a gallon of diesel fuel requires 25% more oil and emits 17% more heat-trapping greenhouse gases than gasoline reformulated with MTBE.


Instead of quoting the rest, here's the link to the UCS article: http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/04-12/diesel-vs-gasoline-article.htm

[02ChiantiGT]

[QUOTE=RELAXD]get a diesel expedition. they are frekin huge!!!!

You can't get a diesel in the Expedition, maybe you mean the Excursion? They are being discontinued finally, being replaced by a stretched version of the Expedition call the Expedition EL.

Stay away from Ford and VW is all I have to say. My mom had a Focus ZX3, was a lemon and bought back by Ford and crushed. She will never buy anything other than Hyundai now.

What about a new Rav4? I think they are available in 6cyl now and they have 200+ I believe.