[MD/UD] Solid beam rear suspension?? WTF HYUNDAI!! [Archive] - Hyundai Elantra Forum

: [MD/UD] Solid beam rear suspension?? WTF HYUNDAI!!



only1db
12-09-2010, 10:16 AM
you cant get a manual in the upper trim...and they they gave it the crap suspension from a 90 excel? wtf? :confused:

BobMs_wht2k2
12-09-2010, 10:18 AM
Better than the macstrut crap the XD's have.

hyunelan2
12-09-2010, 10:53 AM
you cant get a manual in the upper trim...
reasons for this were stated in the Optima thread - nobody wants to row their own in an econobox.



and they they gave it the crap suspension from a 90 excel? wtf? :confused:
Cost factor? There has to be some way to make a newer car and not raise the price.

songee623
12-09-2010, 01:34 PM
^Two good point's.

only1db
12-09-2010, 03:41 PM
i can see it in the accent where they would really have to cost cut, but on the md? in the immortal words of jeremy clarckson "its crap!"

cclngthr
12-09-2010, 04:42 PM
Have a picture of the rear suspension?

BobMs_wht2k2
12-09-2010, 04:45 PM
I mean, it's not like VW hasn't used this style suspension for decades and had some of the best handling FWD cars out there. Or GM using it on the Cobalt SS and turning it into one of (if not the) best handling higher powered FWD'ers out there. If you want to be honest, Hyundai has been behind hte suspension curve with the Elantra since it's inception. If it's not doulbe a-arms it's not "right".

hyunelan2
12-09-2010, 04:56 PM
Related, but not really, but still interesting read about the rear solid rear suspension on the Mustang. Sure, the common story always was that Ford kept the "old technology" for drag-racers, but in actuality it was money. The same reason the Elantra would use a solid axle over some form of IRS.



Late in the S197 program, however, product development executive Phil Martens reportedly managed to convince Bill Ford Jr. he could save Ford $100 a car if the Mustang was switched to a live rear axle. The S197 platform was hurriedly torn up and reworked to accommodate the old-tech suspension. Martens was named Ford’s group vice-president, product creation, North America, in October, 2003...

There are a lot of good reasons why the rest of the world’s automakers stopped using the Mustang’s rear suspension layout decades ago. No matter how well set up, a live rear axle will never deliver the refinement, ride quality, and all-round traction of a well set up independent rear end. Yeah, yeah, I know drag racers like live rear axles, but let’s be honest, how many S197s actually spend their weekends pounding quarter miles? I’d be astonished if it’s more than a tiny fraction of the total number of Mustangs sold.

Now here’s the punchline: My well-placed sources say that once the noise, vibration and harshness, and driveline angle issues were solved, the S197′s live rear axle actually ended up costing Ford $98 per unit MORE than the low cost independent rear end originally developed for the car.


Read more: http://blogs.motortrend.com/2010-ford-mustang-near-enough-is-not-good-enough-2358.html#ixzz17ebMHia8

mtlelantra
12-09-2010, 06:30 PM
Related, but not really, but still interesting read about the rear solid rear suspension on the Mustang. Sure, the common story always was that Ford kept the "old technology" for drag-racers, but in actuality it was money. The same reason the Elantra would use a solid axle over some form of IRS.

Well let's be careful here... There's a HUGE difference between a live (or dead for FWD) rear axle vs a torsion beam setup. Live/dead axles like the Mustang aren't even semi-independant and handle like a shoe.

And the MD rear is a torsion bar, btw, not a dead axle.

I see more vehicles in the segment moving to torsion bar... Civic/Mazda3/Impreza/Lancer still multilink...

only1db
12-09-2010, 08:22 PM
there are pics up on hma. i dont have an MD handy to look under at the moment. haha

cclngthr
12-09-2010, 09:11 PM
I mean, it's not like VW hasn't used this style suspension for decades and had some of the best handling FWD cars out there. Or GM using it on the Cobalt SS and turning it into one of (if not the) best handling higher powered FWD'ers out there. If you want to be honest, Hyundai has been behind hte suspension curve with the Elantra since it's inception. If it's not doulbe a-arms it's not "right".

I hope it is an improvement over the HD's rear suspension.

Matrixloader
12-09-2010, 11:12 PM
honda , toyota , even GM still use this technology too.

I think it may be ok, maybe better than the HD's suspension, might fix that nasty body roll the HD's had.
Lets wait for a Video Review on the MD and see how it handles.

mtlelantra
12-10-2010, 12:28 AM
I hope it is an improvement over the HD's rear suspension.

Yeah, it looks completely different... looks like a normal torsion bar system... The HD suspension looks weird... like a hybrid of a torsion and multilink...

only1db
12-10-2010, 06:36 AM
matrix...the hd rolls like pillsbury because the sway bar is tiny!

NovaResource
12-10-2010, 08:40 AM
2001-06 XD strut dual-link:
http://www.hmaservice.com/data/Passenger/HY/HMA/ENG/SHOP-Images/HY-XD13-IMAGES-ENG/exdse61a.gif

2007-10 HD multi-link:
http://www.hmaservice.com/data/Passenger/HY/HMA/ENG/SHOP-Images/HY-HD13-IMAGES-ENG/shdss9304n.gif

2011 MD torsion beam axle:
http://www.hmaservice.com/data/Passenger/HY/HMA/ENG/SHOP-Images/HY-MD13-IMAGES-ENG/smdss1030d.gif

Silentwolf
12-10-2010, 08:58 AM
Bobz: Care to explain the double A reasoning??

LeShadow
12-10-2010, 09:13 AM
My Forte has that too and personally, i find it similar to the handle that i got by improving my XD with the GT swaybar...

Why does Anything have to be complex to be efficient ?

BobMs_wht2k2
12-10-2010, 09:36 AM
Bobz: Care to explain the double A reasoning??

Sadly, it's not my personal idea, it's common knowldege. With a double wishbone suspension the camber curve doesn't change as dramatically as a macstrut. So when the car enters a turn and the the outside tire extends and the inside tire compresses on the suspension the camber curves remain constant. Makes for a much better controlled vehicle and is more consistant. With a macstrut, the inside tire (the one that is already losing grip because of weight transfer) loses camber while the outside tre gains it. Makes it very inconsistant.

NovaResource
12-10-2010, 09:46 AM
While the multi-link is better (as Bob explained) it's more complicated, more costly and takes up more room under the chassis which cuts into interior passenger/cargo space.

For a race car, you'd want a multi-link.

For a daily driver economy car the torsion beam axle is more than adequate. And in this segment, buyers are more concerned with cost and space than they are with constant tire patch contact and camber.

hyunelan2
12-10-2010, 09:53 AM
Here is some more info if anyone is curious. This is about front suspension, but you can apply the concept to the rear. Originally posted HERE (http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=525)


I. INTRODUCTION

This is probably going to be fairly long, but I wanted to make sure that I covered all of the important points (plus I'm long-winded), so please bear with me. Well, let's get to it...

MacPherson Strut
http://www.team-integra.net/images/BAEC1978-D3A7-4405-AB2D-2761DC15A96D/articles/tuan/model_2.gif

Double Wishbone
http://www.team-integra.net/images/BAEC1978-D3A7-4405-AB2D-2761DC15A96D/articles/tuan/suspensi.gif


II. MACPHERSON STRUTS

I'll start with the MacPherson Strut (Chapman Strut) design. This was invented by Earl S. MacPherson in the 1940's. The MacPherson Strut is basically the simplest of the front independent suspension designs.

Like I mentioned above, this system uses a "coil-over-oil" design. The piston rod of the shock absorber is used to serve as a kingpin axis at the top of the strut. At the bottom, the spring and shock combo pivot on a ball joint on the single lower arm (which is often an A-arm). When turning, the entire strut column (basically the shock body) is twisted in order to turn the wheel, which would cause the spring to "wind-up"(the strut is twisting, but the spring wouldn't, causing the spring to be twisted, or wind-up). In order to solve this problem a thrust bearing is placed at the top of the spring to prevent spring wind-up during turns. Now in a MacPherson Strut type suspension design, the strut itself is the load bearing member, with the springs and shocks merely performing their respective duties instead of also holding up the car.

There is a lot of confusion surrounding this, so I would like to
address that quickly before moving on:

Many people believe that the MacPherson Strut design doesn't use shock absorbers at all, that it uses what they call "a strut" which they think is completely different from a shock absorber. So when they talk about MacPherson Strut type suspensions, they will tell you that MacPherson Strut type designs do not use shock absorbers, that they use struts. I have encountered many other misconceptions about this issue, but that one is by far the most common. Now there isn't anything that you can do to damage your car if you use the term strut instead of shock absorber, but I thought I'd better clear up the terminology problems here. These misconceptions are completely understandable, as there are so many different people in the business using almost as many different terms. (hehehe, I told you I am long-winded)

I'm going to try and explain the difference as best I can. A strut is the load-bearing member of the MacPherson/Chapman Strut suspension design. A shock absorber, or more correctly a damper, is the thing in your suspension that counteracts the movement of the springs in order to stop the car from constantly bouncing up and down over and over after you hit a bump in the road.

Now here's where the confusion comes from: The strut and the shock absorber are integrated together in a strut type suspension. They are two different things, but they come in one package all integrated together. It is not a major problem, but since I'm writing this anyway, I thought I'd clear that up. So even though the strut and shock absorber are integrated into the same housing basically, they are two different things...the strut bears the weight of the car, effectively holding the car up, and the shock absorbers counteract the movement of the springs. So cars with a MacPherson Strut suspension have BOTH struts and shocks.

Ok, back to the MacPherson Strut. So, we've got the wheel of the car attached to the bottom of the strut by a lower A-arm (in almost all cases today), and a near vertical strut. Steering is accomplished by the steering gear being connected either directly to the lower part of the strut, or to an arm from the front or back of the spindle.

Before I move on to Double Wishbone suspensions, a quick side note about the way the MacPherson Strut allows the twisting that takes place when the steering wheel is turned. The spring is seated in a special plate at the top of the strut assembly. When this plate, or the springs get worn, a loud "clunk" is usually heard at full lock (the steering wheel turned as far as it will go in one direction) as the spring frees itself from the proper place on the plate and then snaps back into place. The reason that I mention this is that this noise is often confused with a CV joint knock, so if you're hearing something that you think is a CV joint problem, you may want to have the springs and plate checked as well.


DOUBLE WISHBONE

All right, now onto the Double Wishbone suspension type. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to explain all of the parts of this type of suspension and how it works, so I'm just going to do a quick overview so you understand basically what is going on. With this type of suspension, the upright supporting the wheel is attached to the frame of the car with a pair of links in the shape of a wishbone. These links are connected to the frame by bearings called suspension pivots (which are either metal or rubber, or now-a-days polyurethane). These links (arms) are not always parallel, and are usually of unequal lengths. The Double Wishbone suspension is a type of Double A-arm suspension. Double A-arm suspension systems have been around for about 50 years now. Early versions had equal length arms, but this caused the wheels of the car to lean outboard in turns (increased positive camber). When unequal length arms were developed the positive camber change problem was solved, and in fact was changed to a huge advantage because it made the wheels develop increased negative camber during vertical suspension movement. Double Wishbone suspension also use the "coil-over-oil" design, much like the MacPherson Strut, which often leads to people calling the shock absorbers on their cars "struts" even when their cars don't use a strut type suspension.

I've included pictures of each suspension type to try and make what I'm saying a little clearer. Especially with the Double Wishbone suspension, the pics can probably give you a better idea of how the suspension works than I can with words. Of course, the best way to figure it all out is to get under a car with a Double Wishbone suspension type and look at it to try and figure out how everything works. Don't feel bad if it doesn't make sense though, there are plenty of mechanics out there that don't understand how a Double Wishbone suspension works, it's a very complicated system. Today, engineers use computers to help them design the systems because there are too many variables to deal with to do it by hand without taking an extremely long time.

mtlelantra
12-10-2010, 02:05 PM
For more on suspension- these are pretty thorough:

http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/suspension/tech_suspension1.htm

SuperGLS
12-10-2010, 05:59 PM
Thanks all. Autoblog noted that this car isn't particularly exciting around corners, nor should it be.



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Tommy
12-11-2010, 06:19 PM
Thanks all. Autoblog noted that this car isn't particularly exciting around corners, nor should it be.

exactly. its an elantra people... this is the same car that they called GT because it came with leather seats and a spoiler standard.

Pete03GLS
12-11-2010, 06:32 PM
and fog lights. sometimes...

only1db
12-11-2010, 08:08 PM
here are the pics of the rear suspension...good thing the sales people know me....they would call the cops on me! haha h

so absolutely no camber or toe adjustment....***!
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/only1db/MDsuspension.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/only1db/MDsuspension1.jpg

mtlelantra
12-12-2010, 01:04 AM
I recall a company that made these rotatable camber plates of various angles, essentially think of a round doorstop, but in small angles, made for torsion beam suspensions... You take off the rear hub and install the plate in between the beam arm and the hub. It had this chart where you could input the camber and toe that you want to add, and it tells how to rotate the wedge in relation to horizontal... can't seem to locate the website though...

only1db
12-12-2010, 07:16 AM
mt...now that i had time....that was a pretty good read.

Tommy
12-14-2010, 03:01 AM
There's ways to get camber/toe on torsion beam suspensions. VW guys have no problem pulling it off, I did the same with mine, like he said - basically shims.

Silentwolf
12-14-2010, 09:28 PM
exactly. its an elantra people... this is the same car that they called GT because it came with leather seats and a spoiler standard.
It had more upgrades than that. :rolleyes:

To all: So its acceptable for torsion/fixed on the Elantra but not acceptable on the Stang.....


Is the crown vic a double wishbone up front??

mtlelantra
12-14-2010, 10:57 PM
To all: So its acceptable for torsion/fixed on the Elantra but not acceptable on the Stang.....

The Mustang's live rear axle is NOT the same as a torsion (which is not a fixed suspension either). Read through the pages of the link I posted in #21.
Live/dead axle is on page 1, torsion bar is on page 3.
Torsion is semi-independant. Live/dead is not.

cclngthr
12-15-2010, 02:31 PM
here are the pics of the rear suspension...good thing the sales people know me....they would call the cops on me! haha h

so absolutely no camber or toe adjustment....***!
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/only1db/MDsuspension.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/only1db/MDsuspension1.jpg

Wonder if it is set to 0 on both. Lowering it is much simpler, just replace the springs.

UrbanerMezei
12-15-2010, 02:35 PM
Thanks all. Autoblog noted that this car isn't particularly exciting around corners, nor should it be.

</thread>

The Elantra is an ecobox, made for getting from point a to point b. The "Sport" logo and minor visual alterations are to make it look not so... girly.

only1db
12-15-2010, 03:45 PM
CC i doubt that...that would be nice...but i doubt it. when i was at the nissan dealership there was a guy with a 98 sentra and he wanted to zero out his toe and he was talking about a guy that came out and would BEND the torsion bar!!! WTF? haha

Cypher
12-19-2010, 01:56 PM
here are the pics of the rear suspension...good thing the sales people know me....they would call the cops on me! haha h

so absolutely no camber or toe adjustment....***!
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/only1db/MDsuspension.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/only1db/MDsuspension1.jpg

You shouldn't need to adjust it since most people who own these cars don't lower them, and as Tommy said there are always ways around that. It's an econo box, just because your mind can't get around why Hyundai did it doesn't make it a bad idea.