Scion Tc, Lancer Ralliart, Cooper S, Focus ZX4, Mazda 3 [Archive] - Hyundai Elantra Forum

: Scion Tc, Lancer Ralliart, Cooper S, Focus ZX4, Mazda 3



Jmontigny
01-26-2005, 09:45 AM
Motor trand did an article on these 5 cars. They are capable of .81 to .87g cornering, have 151-168 hp and will run 14.8 to 16.1 second 1/4 mile times. The prices range from $18,000 to $20,500.

The question is are they really worth it. First I would like to try to figure out what a real word price to buy these cars with rebates and discounts is. Here is the list of cars and the MSRP with as tested options. Lets try to gather the rebate info and discounted price on these cars to see how much more expensive than an Elantra they really are. Then we can talk about the other aspects of them such as looks, features, fun, and daily usage.

For comparison sake lets also toss in a 2005 Elantra GT. The GT I will use is equipped with sunroof, and ABS to compare equally with the other cars below.

2005 Ford Focus ZX4 ST
MSRP $19,559
Edmunds TMV $16,842

2005 Mazda3 5-door
MSRP $19,390
Edmunds TMV $18,621

2005 Mini Cooper S
MSRP $20,449
Edmunds TMV $20,449

2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart
MSRP $20,405
Edmunds TMV $20,084

2005 Scion Tc
MSRP $18,035
Edmunds TMV $18,035

2005 Elantra GT
MSRP $16,799
Edmunds TMV $14,168

BobMs_wht2k2
01-26-2005, 10:07 AM
I believe the scion price is like a saturn price, this is it, pay it or leave. The Foci aren't running any rebates that I have seen.

Jmontigny
01-26-2005, 10:18 AM
I just checked the Ford site and they list $2000 rebates. Edmunds had it listed as $2500 so I modified the price listed above.

In my opinion there aer several things that need to be done to the Elantra to get it close to the same level as the other cars listed above. Those areas are:

Tires
Suspension
Brakes
Engine output

To do that the Elantra would need Tib brakes, Eibach springs, 19mm sway bar, Tib struts maybe, 205/50/16 tires on 16x6.5 wheels, and a CAI. Price for all that is $2000-2500 which is not bad. It still makes the Elantra $600 less expensive than the cheapest car the Focus. The only problem now is that the Elantra is just barely as quick as the other cars in the test but the trade-off is better fuel mileage.

BobMs_wht2k2
01-26-2005, 10:48 AM
Better mileage yes, but focus has had some reliabilty issues, mitsu I don't even want to get startd on. The Mini has the same dependabilty/electrical issues as other BMW's not to mention that maintenance items are rediculously over priced. The scion has no room plus the back seat is hard to get into.

Something to think on. . . the new cobalt coupe will come with a 170hp 2.4 this fall, should fit well in this class. Plus, the SS 205hp version w/o all the silly options is right at 21k and already has more aftermarket support than we have. I would probably pick it over any of these options.

Jmontigny
01-26-2005, 10:59 AM
Good call on all those issues listed above. All reasons to question wether they are worth buying or not.

I personally only like the Mazda and Mitsu in the looks and performance areas. I am very leary of the reliability of both those vehicles however.

The Cobalt adds a nice option to the list. Have not seen one first hand but seem like an atractive car. The SS had extensive work done to make handling first rate vs the base model Cobalt. They even used aluminum front control arms on the SS version. Add to that the addition of factory equipped Quaife soon and that should be a great package. Obviously the Cobalt is a gamble since it has a powertrain that has not proven itself yet.

$20,000 is really a much higher league of cars that the Elantra really can't compete with in the performance area.

BobMs_wht2k2
01-26-2005, 11:01 AM
Actually, that engine has been in use for close to 3 years or more here. The saturn l series used it from the beginning.

Jmontigny
01-26-2005, 11:05 AM
But not supercharged with a Quaife letting lots of torque transfer to the ground. That will put alot more stress on the drivetrain. An open dif lets front tires spin which does not stress the drivetrain much.

BobMs_wht2k2
01-26-2005, 11:07 AM
True. Hey, you get the feeling we're the only two looking at this?

sed
01-26-2005, 11:46 AM
no you aren't the only two looking at it.


I say, get a stripped elantra with no options for like 12k right jay?

then suspension - 1500
weight reduction - free
built motor - 1500
turbo kit - 3500
16's w/ tires - 800
LSD - 1500

so for at or around 20k you have a 13 sec car that handles like a FD rx7

shawn :)

Jmontigny
01-26-2005, 12:14 PM
That would be fun but we all know that 99.9% of Elantra owners would never bother doing that.

We are talking about a realistic daily driven car for $15,000-20,000 here. Not a toy made to enjoy only at the track.

Regardless I really think that if I had $20,000 to spend it would quite possibly not be for any of those vehicles listed above. I would most likely spend my money on a Toyota Matrix XRS (180hp and 25/32mpg) if those cars above were my options.

sed
01-26-2005, 12:17 PM
Jay,

I am simply saying, that wouldn't have to be a track only car, it will be streetable....

stock vs stock, I would take a Scion TC, i like the sport coupe, it looks like a tibby

shawn :)

Jmontigny
01-26-2005, 12:28 PM
Scion Tc is very nice but is only 2dr. Would not make sense for alot of people. If I was single it would be a strong consideration.

Just looked and found guys running The Matrix XRS with just a CAI are in the 15.0 to 15.5 sec range in the 1/4 mile. Very nice times for a car that looks like a 16 second 1/4 mile would be a challenge.

If you are able to get a 2005 Matrix XRS for $400 over invoice it would be $19,000 with 215/50/17 rubber, factory sunroof, JBL 6disc in dash changer. Very good deal compared to the other cars above.

bikerPA
01-26-2005, 12:51 PM
If it were me and I had those options, I would go into debt for an extra few months or something and buy the Matrix. Proven reliability, plenty good enough performance with a good deal of overhead if you want to push it more down the road, a metric [email protected] of aftermarket support, and more room than any other car on the list, unless the Lancer Ralliart is available in their wagon configuration (I am too lazy to look). Oh, and higher resale down the road, if it ever comes to that. If you have any Toyota strings to pull, I'd pull 'em hard.

BobMs_wht2k2
01-26-2005, 01:27 PM
I am not going to comment on the Matrix due to my personal loathing of all Toyota products, including the scion. My feelings aren't facts so i will keep my mouth shut.

There's also the Aerio wagon from Suzuki, 2.3L and AWD with some aftermarket support. Long warranty, dependable well built cars. Don't know what they are going for now though.

th003g
01-26-2005, 01:37 PM
lancer ralliart sportback was avaliable for a bit last year but I dont see it on their website anymore....
out of the above I'd take the cooper S for fun, mazda3 is nice but it kinda looks frumpy/off to me...

SWortham
01-26-2005, 01:53 PM
I just don't think I'll shop in the same segment again if I can help it. But out of those cars, I'd consider either the Mazda 3 or the Scion tC just because of their sporty nature & nice chassis/suspension. The Mini just wouldn't work for me since I can't fit in it. The Focus is kinda ugly. The Lancer is kinda ugly.

And I already have an Elantra and I can't say much for the stock suspension, steering, and it's lacking all the little details which make Mazda's handle so well. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice car and a great value, but it's not sporty by any means. And all the details like bushings and the steering ratio hurt its performance.

getfuzzd
01-26-2005, 02:02 PM
Chevy Cobalt, and Saturn Ion use GM's Ecotec engine...its bottom(block, crank, etc.) end has be pushed to 850HP with no mods, the head, exhaust, intake and tranny along with everything else on the other hand :D
I guessing the TC uses a Toyota variation thereof

theres even a few manufactures making aftermarket for the cobalt already.
http://www.rksport.com - colbalt body kit
http://www.mantapart.com - ecotec engine stuff

This is one of my favorite catalog sites for the focus
http://www.fordracingparts.com/download/catalogs/2004-ff.pdf
Go to page 34!

Jmontigny
01-26-2005, 02:10 PM
Don't get me wrong, it's a nice car and a great value, but it's not sporty by any means. And all the details like bushings and the steering ratio hurt its performance.
Great point. Little details are what really polish off a good handling car into a great handling car. For the money the Elantra has little competition but try to compete upmarket and the details are missing.



Chevy Cobalt, and Saturn Ion use GM's Ecotec engine...its bottom(block, crank, etc.) end has be pushed to 850HP with no mods, the head, exhaust, intake and tranny along with everything else on the other hand :D
I guessing the TC uses a Toyota variation thereof

theres even a few manufactures making aftermarket for the cobalt already.
http://www.rksport.com - colbalt body kit
http://www.mantapart.com - ecotec engine stuff

This is one of my favorite catalog sites for the focus
http://www.fordracingparts.com/download/catalogs/2004-ff.pdf
Go to page 34!
I have seen those Focus parts before, makes you want to go pick up a cheap used one just so you can have a car to add all those great parts onto. I love how you can even get flared fenders.

I need to start a new thread about this Cobalt/Scion Tc relationship.

BobMs_wht2k2
01-26-2005, 02:11 PM
I enjoy my Elantra very much and do not regret buying it. I know that it was never meant to be in the same class as these cars and I'm fine with that. It is great at what it was intended for: dependable, comfortable and economical transportation.

Now, that said my next new car (for me) WILL be a GTO.

getfuzzd
01-26-2005, 02:12 PM
Please do, the Cobalt and TC are too much, or at least seem to be, the same car IMO.

BobMs_wht2k2
01-26-2005, 02:12 PM
Actually, the Scion uses the Camry 2.4l. Nothing special there, and no relation to the Ecotec.

Jmontigny
01-26-2005, 02:16 PM
I enjoy my Elantra very much and do not regret buying it. I know that it was never meant to be in the same class as these cars and I'm fine with that. It is great at what it was intended for: dependable, comfortable and economical transportation.

Now, that said my next new car (for me) WILL be a GTO.

Really... I was going to talk about that car today as well.

SuperGLS
01-26-2005, 09:43 PM
One thing that I have to add is that apparently you still have to get on a waiting list to get a Cooper S, and the used ones actually sell higher than new ones because of this (when I last checked).

I wouldn't go with the Lancer or Focus because of looks and some reliability issues that I've read/heard about. The Mazda 3 is a very nice car and more practical (for me) than the tC, which is already too popular for my tastes (which comes with a lot of people who "mod" the car not because they really enjoy, simply because they can do it easily).

I agree also that the Elantra (GLS or GT) can't really compete with most of these cars on a level of "sportyness."

It's interesting that the SRT-4 hasn't popped up in this conversation (even if it doesn't fit your parameters Jay). I mean, seriously, who's going to spend $20,000 on a Cobalt SS when they can get an SRT-4 for just a little more? Obviously it's attractive to people who like coupes, but that's it really. Hmm...



100% free webcam site! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=0) | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=2) | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3 (http://showmewebcam.com/?p=4)

Jmontigny
01-26-2005, 10:38 PM
Well I think that since Neon is almost the bottom of the barrel in terms of dependability is why the SRT 4 never entered the conversation. These cars i am discussing are not something I am actually considering. I just brought the segment up to talk about. I have the Elantra GLS 5dr that my wife wants to buy sitting outside my parts department waiting for me to sell my Odyssey.

02xdGLS
01-27-2005, 02:50 AM
hmmmm
i'm also wondering why 05 tiburon se isn't on the list...
performance-wise, it's in that category. Although objectivley, it lacks power considering it's a v6 but i hear it handles pretty well. Also it is priced at 20G+, but in real life, i'm sure it's cheaper than MSRP on the site.
After-market part wise, being a hyundai and all, there will be less compared to others but plenty enough to provide more power.. i thought i saw a thread about turboed 4 banger tib in high-300 HP and 300-ish ripp SC ones..

I'm considering tib as my next car, AND i personally HATE scions, so it may seem a bit biased but facts are facts. And i think tib is a good contendor in this category.

Woody
01-27-2005, 08:25 AM
Scattered thought about this article...

- I read the article too - I sent MT a letter said they should have included the Elantra. As far as I can see the Elantra should get close to tC performance for what? Like $7,000 less?
- I can't figure out if I like the tC or not. I like the photos, but when I look at one in person, I can't make up my mind.
- According to MT The Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec 5 lists at around $19,000 - does a 7.2 0-60, and 65.1 mph in their slalom. But alas, I'm not a Nissan or Toyota guy. I'm a Mazda, Hyundai guy.
- I drove the Mazda3 S before I drove the Elantra...the Elantra just felt faster. To double check, I went back and drove the Mazda 3S again...yup, the Elantra just feels faster - probably because it has more low end grunt.

- Woody

EGT04
01-27-2005, 11:16 AM
hmmmm
i'm also wondering why 05 tiburon se isn't on the list...
performance-wise, it's in that category. Although objectivley, it lacks power considering it's a v6 but i hear it handles pretty well. Also it is priced at 20G+, but in real life, i'm sure it's cheaper than MSRP on the site.
After-market part wise, being a hyundai and all, there will be less compared to others but plenty enough to provide more power.. i thought i saw a thread about turboed 4 banger tib in high-300 HP and 300-ish ripp SC ones..

I'm considering tib as my next car, AND i personally HATE scions, so it may seem a bit biased but facts are facts. And i think tib is a good contendor in this category.

Yea, I was wondering why people weren't talking about 05 tib. What I'm hoping is that the new tibby comes with the new v6 engine they have that can produce around 230HP. Is it called Lamba??? anyway, the new NF sonata will come with that v6 engine. http://www.hyundaisonata.com/ You can check it out at this website. I think when they put that engine on the tib, tibs gonna rock, because I'm pretty sure it will go over 300HP or more with turbocharger/supercharger. But who knows... we might have to wait til 2006... that's the bad part...

Jmontigny
01-27-2005, 11:31 AM
I did not mention the Tib since it is not a consideration as long as it uses the dual mass flywheel. I mean everytime you need a clutch it is going to cost close to $2000 (7 times now on 4 cars) and heaven forbid you ever need a tranny at close to $6000 (we have done 3 so far). The cars are barely worth $8000 after they are driven off the lot. That is the absolute worst designed powertrain. I would say the Tibs have more problems than any other Hyundai. Besides I kinda think of the Tib as a chick car. :tongue:

04Elantra
01-27-2005, 11:47 AM
The Scions are gonna have tons of parts for them (both factory and aftermarket) and the Focus has a catalog of factory performance parts. So if you want easy to get, plentiful parts, these are good picks.

...but our Elantras with springs, struts and performance rubber, along with a wet nitrous kit and a tib brake upgrade would likely outperform those cars on a 1/4 mile and on a road course..or be damn close and would probably only cost an extra $3000 or so and it would still be cheaper than the rest and totally driveable.......and unique ;)

Woody
01-27-2005, 03:18 PM
Jmontigny - are you talking about the last generaton of Tib or all of them? Transmissions are next expensive to blown engine, but $6,000 for a transmission? Unreal.

- Woody

Jmontigny
01-27-2005, 03:25 PM
Jmontigny - are you talking about the last generaton of Tib or all of them? Transmissions are next expensive to blown engine, but $6,000 for a transmission? Unreal.

- Woody

03-05 Tiburon 6spd $5325 plus about $500 labor. Unreal is right.

pancit
01-27-2005, 05:35 PM
...but our Elantras with springs, struts and performance rubber, along with a wet nitrous kit and a tib brake upgrade would likely outperform those cars on a 1/4 mile and on a road course..or be damn close and would probably only cost an extra $3000 or so and it would still be cheaper than the rest and totally driveable.......and unique ;)

lol road course with nos. It sure will be unique with no warranty left:)

get a matrix.

BobMs_wht2k2
01-27-2005, 05:41 PM
03-05 Tiburon 6spd $5325 plus about $500 labor. Unreal is right.

I remember at least 2 trannies and a dozen or more clutch/flywheel jobs. If I remember right we even did a Sonata.

Plus, bigger guys like myself are not even close to being comfortable in a Tib, old or new.

02xdGLS
01-27-2005, 07:05 PM
as far as these cars are concerned... i tried to pick one under the pretense that i HAVE TO PICK ONE or take buses or walk.. even then i can't decide 'cause i'm not sold on any of them.
On the other hand, my elantra, despite the lack of power, is a totally dif. story. :D