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KDM to JDM.
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
In the near future I plan on purchasing a new header. But I can't decide between 4-1 or 4-2-1. I am a somewhat-newbie on this subject, so if what I type from this point on seems like babble, please someone correct me ;)

From what I've read, 4-1 gives high end rpm, and 4-2-1 gives low end torque, correct? Ok, now with some logical problems I've seen on these boards.
I've seem people who, for example, would have a short ram, which they say destroys torque, then they would get the 4-2-1 header and "get that torque back" wouldnt the idea of modding a car is to get EVERYTHING better, not to lose some and get some back? When I mod my engine, I plan on modding it so one part of it is super strong. (I feel like a 10 year old using the word "super")...for example, let's say I want a really great low-end-torque vehicle. I'd get mods that up THAT and only that. This is assuming mods like this dont "overlap" (something that adds 10lb of torque and something else that adds 15lb of torque only results in a 15lb increase total) Do any of you know what the hell I'm talking about? Why do people add mods to their car that lower some part of their performace?

If that wasn't newbie enough, try this on for size;
I want to have a quick-dash vehicle. I want to be able to BLAST off that starting line. That would require low end torque? (or is there a way to get lots of low end horsepower? I havent heard many people talking about this) And if it does, what can I do to my vehicle besides the header to get it to do so?

For me, it is like I have to choose one when it comes to making mods to my cars.
Low End Torque vs High End Horsepower. what has everyone else choosen?

(oh crap I babbled, didn't i?)
 

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i'm all about low end torque. for autocrossing that is all i really need. but by building the low end the high end comes with it. if i put something on that takes away from the high end, no big deal.

or is there a way to get lots of low end horsepower?

from what i have always been told lowend is torque and high end is hp. i know they are 2 diferent curves but that is what i've been told. horse power is top end and torque is how fast you get there. as far as your question about the header.... i don't know
 

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ok,

Your 4-2-1 header is going to give you more backpressure, meaning you get more torque off the line. If you really want a quickdash vehicle then you need the following:

Stage three clutch, 4-2-1 header, full exhaust with strait through muffler, SAFC, Alpine Supercharger Kit, Lightweight wheels, Lightened flywheel, Underdrive Pulley, Retuned Ecu.

With that oh about 5,000 dollars in parts ;) your car will absolutely SCREAM off the line.

shawn :)
 

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I thought we knew that the available elantra headers were killing torque? Maybe I'm wrong, but I know that's the reason Jay never installed one. With all the different expiraments he had under the hood, you'd think he would have one day had a header under there if it made a difference. Perhaps someone can correct me.
 

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Here is what Jay had to say about a header:

Basically if having a cel and emmisions testing is a concern you have very little you can do. Evil seems to be the only one who has managed to get no cel. He has done this by retaining the stock second cat and relocating the second O2 sensor behind it. This does not guarantee everyone will be as successfull as him. Plus retaining the second cat theoretically eliminates the gains provided by the header (I still am not convinced of any real gains with a header anyhow).

Quote:
So if I was to run a header I would use one like the EvoFusion that eliminates both cats and have the cel. When it is time to test for emmisions I would bolt the stock manifold and cat back in with the O2 sensors and then remove them the day after the test. A PITA but really the only real option if you want to achieve the full potential a header might be able to provide on our cars.

Quote:
The last thing to consider is that a header provides grounds for the dealer to void the 10year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty your car came with. The grounds being the incorrect O2 sensor readings that can effect the proper fuel mixture that the car was designed for. Plus there are the legal matters associated with using a part sold for off road use only.

Quote:
In my mind there is too many negatives to warrant a header on the Elantra. So far they have not been proven to provide any hp gains and most actually loose torque. Until a Dynojet dyno with a header that shows at least 5hp and 5 ft/lb gains are seen my feelings will remain the same. Save your money for gasoline instead.

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Here is a concept that most people fail to see..

A typical engine (non vvt) has a pre-set powerband based on cam profile/compression/timing + stock ecu tuning.

By adding bolt-on parts, you can slightly alter that powerband.

This creates a delicate balance. If you give the car too much high end breathing capability, you will reduce the low end performance because you reduce the air flow volume at low rpms...

therefore, you might gain 10-15 hp near the power peek but you might loose a few ft/lb torque below the original peak torque point..

anyhow... thats the general idea...

My experience shows that you will have the best overall gains with a 4-2-1 header combined with a ported stock intake and a CAI.

so far, I have not seen any other combination produce more power on the stock beta engine.
 

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scared like cheese
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JAY NEVER HAD HEADERS ON HIS CAR. Most of what Jay is saying about headers is his opinion and is not tested or proven on the XD. And 2BIT stop posting that shit. Everyone has seen it by now and it doesn't need to be brought into every thread that has to do with headers. I can open probably 10 different threads that you have posted that in or posted the link. And for anything to viod the warrenty the dealer has to PROVE what you did caused the part that failed to fail. That is LAW and you should be able to grasp that 2BIT.
 

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Lets see, you are God, right? You can tell me WTF to do? 10 threads? I think more like 2, this one and the cel thread.
The guy is new, he needs to know ALL the possibilities before he does it.
People like you are the reason people like Jay leave this site with your being so obnoxious and rude.. As a matter of fact, I am now gone myself. For all of you that have helped me, my sincere thanks, I have learned alot, but Im not gonna put up with this crap from someone who isnt even a moderator.
 

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scared like cheese
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Whatever, do some of you guys worship Jay or something? I know he is pretty knoweldgable but some people don't seem to realize that some of what he says is his unproven opinion. Jay hasn't run a header and has no personal experience on the subject yet you keep posting that same thread like it's gold. There are 4 people here that have headers and no cel. There are probably at least double that that will tell everyone that the cheap headers that I don't like still gave an increase in power. A couple people have backed that up with dynos and though the gains were low they were there. We all know Jays opinion on headers we don't need to see it every other post. Sorry if you didn't like the way I said that but I'm not crying if you don't like me or what I said.
 

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Hyundai Dealer
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there seems to be a fad here of people making a statement by leaving the site.....we need a better way for people to have a difference of opinion or we will self terminate until there is no site left! Back on topic...4-1 headers arent gonna help unless you plann on driving your car around tacked up all the time. 4-2-1 will give you nice torque gains and it will be in a very usable range of the rpm band. Thats the way to go!
 

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4-2-1 headers will give most people the most gain for what they are looking for. If yo uraise the rev limit and do mor mods, then the 2-1 header would make more sense, or if you change cams.
 

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I have seen 2-1 before.. "true duals" for a 4cyl...... Didn't see them on a car just in a performance shop.
 

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also I have said it before. Not one car has dipped into the 15s without a header yet that I know of(my memory has been shot lately). I did not dyno my car before and after the header so I can not prove the gains that it may have provided. All engines are different and just because Jays dyno with the stock manifold was close to mine doesn't mean that his car would not have benefited from a header. I could have been at 123-125 before the header but we will never know. All I can show is the 15.523 time slip that I have which is faster than Jays best with the stock manifold. I definately felt a difference in the car after installing the header. I am thinking about having a test pipe made soon and having the car dynoed again without the cat to see the gains from no cats. Also on one of the threads from the old forum with the dynos you can see that my torque curve was moved forward with the header.
 

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I felt a huge difference in my car after the 4-2-1 header install. You will love it after you get it done!
 
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